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Originally posted by MoneyManMike
Like I said before, people bound to the NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement (players, coaches, GM's, etc.) are prohibited from negotiating future contracts before July 1st. As it turns out, on June 28th, 2010, Stephen A Smith reported on the Dan Le Batard Show that Lebron James and Chris Bosh had already made their decisions that they would sign with M ...[text shortened]... Dan Le Batard Show:

http://stephena.com/2010/06/28/stephen-as-interview-with-dan-le-batard/

That is not collusion in any way.
Players are independent employees.
They can decide to work along with a friend at the same company.
It would be collusion only if Miami officials were wining and dining them and secretly negotiating with them.
If the players said they were going to look for "X" amount of dollars and "X" number of years,
and the Miami people listened....that is still not collusion.
I have been involved in enough labor law disputes and negotiations to know that.
Granted, it "could" have happened, but with the stakes so high, I doubt they would do
something they could get busted for. It wouldn't make sense.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
That is not collusion in any way.
Players are independent employees.
They can decide to work along with a friend at the same company...I have been involved in enough labor law disputes and negotiations to know that.

Actually Players aren't independent employees. They have a strict dress code. They can't bad mouth the league or question the officials without being penalized with a fine. Players are also required to do X amount of community service every year; the common NBA fan knows this program as "NBA Cares." One other very important restriction is players under contract can't recruit other players from other teams who are also under contract. This provision is laid out in unequivocal, plain English in the Uniform Player Contract provided in Exhibit A of the 2005 Collective Bargaining Agreement ( "CBA" ):

5. Conduct

(f) The Player agrees that he will not, during the term of this Contract, directly or indirectly, entice, induce, or persuade, or attempt to entice, induce, or persuade, any player or coach who is under contract to any NBA team to enter into negotiations for or relating to his services as a basketball player or coach, nor shall he negotiate for or contract for such services, except with the prior written consent of such team. Breach of this subparagraph, in addition to the remedies available to the Team, shall be punishable by fine and/or suspension to be imposed by the Commissioner.

It is important to note that a year is stipulated in the CBA to mean the time period from July 1st to June 30th (CBA Article I, hhh). Therefore, James, Bosh, and Wade would have been prohibited from talking about teaming up together until 12:00 am on July 1st, 2010. However, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence out there that placed the three together in Miami during late June 2010. Stephen A Smith even reported on June 28th, 2010 that Lebron and Bosh had agreed to sign with Miami.

So it is what it is, but NBA players are definitely not free.

I think you should take a peek at the CBA, which can be found here:

http://www.nbpa.org/cba/2005

Read Articles I, II, XIII, XIV, and Exhibit A.

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
Actually Players aren't independent employees. They have a strict dress code. They can't bad mouth the league or question the officials without being penalized with a fine. Players are also required to do X amount of community service every year; the common NBA fan knows this program as "NBA Cares." One other very important restriction is players un ...[text shortened]... d here:

http://www.nbpa.org/cba/2005

Read Articles I, II, XIII, XIV, and Exhibit A.

Mike,

Let me spell it out for you.

Dwayne Wade calls up LeBron and says 'Hey brother, How are things on Cleveland?"
LebRon says I am getting out of there for sure. I am going somewhere to win a championship. How do you like it in Miami?
Dwayne Wade says "I like it pretty well. Pat Riley is cool. Wish we were more competitive though.
LeBron says "Maybe I'll check out Miami when the free agency comes availble to me"
Dwayne Wade says "Man, that would be cool. We could be teammates".


Then Chris Bosh calls LeBron and says "Hey big man, got any ideas where you might be heading?"
LeBron says "Well, I was talking to Dwayne Wade, and I am thinking about checking Miami out...What about you?"
Chrish Bosh says "Wow, You and Dwayne Wade on the same team? That would be pretty cool. Maybe I would look into Miami as well."
LeBRion says "That would be totally solid. It would be good if something like that
worked out. Of course, we can't do anything until July 1st, but we'll see what happens."


In this example, you have the foundation for the three players to end up on the same team and NO ONE is in violation of any term of the CBA.
There was no collusion. There was no trying to sway an opposing player to leave their team.
It was strictly information gather on what the intentions of the others was.

For this reason, unless there is video or audio tape recordings showing something to the contrary, no harm no foul.

And, Stephen Smith has been wrong as hell on some of the things he has reported in the past.
If you are hanging your hat on his report, you are skating on very thin ice.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
For this reason, unless there is video or audio tape recordings showing something to the contrary, no harm no foul.

And, Stephen Smith has been wrong as hell on some of the things he has reported in the past.
If you are hanging your hat on his report, you are skating on very thin ice.

Well actually Stephen A wasn't the only person who reported that the Three were planning on signing with the Heat, I just withheld that information for the sake of brevity. In fact, Chris Broussard (ESPN), Ira Winderman (South Florida Sun-Sentinel), and Bryan Colangelo (Toronto Rapters GM) all spoke implicitly or explicitly about the Three making deals during that last week of June '10. The fact that all the reports came true should be a major red flag. Furthermore, the Heat buying out James Jones' contract the day after Smith made the report about the Three's deals serves as some indication that the Heat Front Office knew that Lebron and Bosh were coming, and that they were trying to free up space for them to get decent star contracts. Why didn't James Jones, 30, protest the Heat's decision to buy out his contract? As a marginal role player entering the latter part of his career, Jones should have been furious at the Heat for axing his somewhat lucrative contract. Of course, Jones didn't think anything of it and flew off to Barbados for a training camp that he was hosting. There was no urgency on his part. He had no fear that the 2009-2010 season might have been his last year in the NBA. After Lebron James made his decision, the Heat announced a week later that they would be resigning Jones to a league minimum $1 mil contract--$3 mil less than his previous contract. In fact, over the next couple seasons Jones will be making what he would have made in one season of his previous contract. But why should he complain? Bron and Bosh were going to win him a championship.

More Circumstantial Evidence:

1. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are represented by Creative Arts Agency ( "CAA" ).

2. Lebron's agent is Leon Rose, while Wade and Bosh are represented by Henry Thomas.

3. Colangelo stated on June 28th via the Bob McCown radio show that he felt like Bosh was leaving based on his conversations with Bosh and his agent, Henry Thomas. Colangelo even felt that the Three might end up on the same team. His concern was getting something in return in the form of a sign-and-trade if Bosh did decide to leave. Coincidentally, the Raptors did end up performing a sign-and-trade deal with the Heat. (http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100628_180508_6668)

4. Colangelo accused Bosh after the Decision of "tanking" the 2010 season after the All-Star Game.

5. Dan Gilbert accused James after the Decision of "tanking" the 2010 playoffs.

6. During the Introduction, or the Three's Welcome Party at the Heat arena, Bosh slipped when he said "the months passed by" after learning about the Three possibly playing together. (YouTube&feature=related )

7. Bron and Bosh have matching contracts, while Wade's is similar.

8. Returning to the Bob McCown Show, Colangelo showed personal knowledge of the CBA rules governing free agency. He even stated that it would be illegal if there were any meetings taking place before July 1st, 2010. Furthermore, Broussard echoed Colangelo's remarks during his interview on the Scott Van Pelt Show. He said that he has it on good authority that the Three did meet and make plans to join forces, but that they and their agents would deny it to avoid getting in trouble. Finally, Ira Winderman wrote in his story that Wade was planning on meeting with multiple teams during the Moratorium period in order to make it look like no colluding had occurred between him and the other two.

Look, there is enough circumstantial evidence that collusion may have occurred by not only the Three, but perhaps even the Heat front office, CAA, and the Toronto front office. At the very least, Stern should have investigated the tampering allegations. However, a couple days ago Stern reaffirmed his stance that he didn't think that there was collusion. Stern must be enjoying the nice ratings.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5338472

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-06-28/sports/sfl-miami-heat-free-agency-s062810_1_salary-cap-nba-free-agency-free-agents

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
Well actually Stephen A wasn't the only person who reported that the Three were planning on signing with the Heat, I just withheld that information for the sake of brevity. In fact, Chris Broussard (ESPN), Ira Winderman (South Florida Sun-Sentinel), and Bryan Colangelo (Toronto Rapters GM) all spoke implicitly or explicitly about the Three making deals ...[text shortened]... /sfl-miami-heat-free-agency-s062810_1_salary-cap-nba-free-agency-free-agents

I once saw the headlines in several major newspapers...all front page mind you, print the exact same story.
Surely when several different major news sources all report the same thing, it must be factual.
Right?
I mean, that is what your primary basis for your argument is and the crux of your "proof".
That just doesn't make it fact though. You may choose to believe it is, but that doesn't make it so.
My example is absolutely verifiable, so you can go check it out if you like.
What headline flooded the country's major newspapers?

Dewey beats Truman for the Presidency.
That didn't happen, yet everyone was reporting that it did.
The media is a bunch of bottom feeders always looking to be the one who scoops a story.
When one reports, often, many others will as well, assuming everyone has done due diligence.
In this case, if it were open and shut as you project, something would have been done.
......unless those photos of David Stern naked with a horse have resurfaced again....

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
Actually Players aren't independent employees. They have a strict dress code. They can't bad mouth the league or question the officials without being penalized with a fine. Players are also required to do X amount of community service every year; the common NBA fan knows this program as "NBA Cares." One other very important restriction is players un ...[text shortened]... d here:

http://www.nbpa.org/cba/2005

Read Articles I, II, XIII, XIV, and Exhibit A.

Again you fail to grasp fairly obvious contract language. I'll highlight the important provisions:

(f) The Player agrees that he will not, during the term of this Contract, directly or indirectly, entice, induce, or persuade, or attempt to entice, induce, or persuade, any player or coach who is under contract to any NBA team to enter into negotiations for or relating to his services as a basketball player or coach, nor shall he negotiate for or contract for such services, except with the prior written consent of such team. Breach of this subparagraph, in addition to the remedies available to the Team, shall be punishable by fine and/or suspension to be imposed by the Commissioner.

It is important to note that a year is stipulated in the CBA to mean the time period from July 1st to June 30th (CBA Article I, hhh).


So in order for this provision to be violated, Wade would have to "entice, induce, or persuade, or attempt to entice, induce, or persuade" James and/or Bosh to negotiate with the Heat prior to July 1, 2010. There is no evidence that the Heat negotiated with those players prior to that date and no evidence that James and Bosh attempted to negotiate with them (both of which would be violations). Wade saying to either player "you really should sign with us after July 1, 2010" is no violation of anything.

Originally posted by no1marauder
So in order for this provision to be violated, Wade would have to "entice, induce, or persuade, or attempt to entice, induce, or persuade" James and/or Bosh to negotiate with the Heat prior to July 1, 2010. There is no evidence that the Heat negotiated with those players prior to that date and no evidence that James and Bosh attempted to negotiate with t ...[text shortened]... ther player "you really should sign with us after July 1, 2010" is no violation of anything.

Yes there is evidence that the Three, their agents, Toronto, and the Heat did begin discussions concerning possible signing with the Heat prior to July 1, 2010. Of course, you are ignoring or missing all the circumstantial evidence that I have posted multiple times already that point towards possible tampering. While I will concede that there is still reasonable doubt that there wasn't collusion, there is still enough evidence that there could have been collusion. Stern should have investigated the matter and interviewed people close to the situation to see if he could identify any inconsistencies in their stories. What did Henry Thomas and Chris Bosh tell Bryan Colangelo in June 2010 that made him think Bosh was leaving? How did the Pat Riley go about the buy-out of James Jones' contract with out burning any bridges? What did the Three tell their immediate family (girlfriends, parents, Lebron's entourage) during the summer of 2010? When did the Heat start talking to Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem?

(Posted Twice)

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
Yes there is evidence that the Three, their agents, Toronto, and the Heat did begin discussions concerning possible signing with the Heat prior to July 1, 2010. Of course, you are ignoring or missing all the circumstantial evidence that I have posted multiple times already that point towards possible tampering. While I will concede that there is still ...[text shortened]... during the summer of 2010? When did the Heat start talking to Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem?

No, there isn't any evidence. A lot of teams clear cap space in order to have room to sign free agents without any prior agreement with the FAs. Bosh could have decided to leave Toronto and wished to play on the Heat, but as long as there were no negotiations between him and the Heat prior to July 1, 2010 there is no violation of the rules. Interviewing wives, girlfriends and friends of players on such flimsy suspicions would be an outrageous invasion of the players' privacy and almost certainly a labor violation.

Enough is enough; stop crying about it. Absent some real proof, this is just sour grapes.

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, there isn't any evidence. A lot of teams clear cap space in order to have room to sign free agents without any prior agreement with the FAs. Bosh could have decided to leave Toronto and wished to play on the Heat, but as long as there were no negotiations between him and the Heat prior to July 1, 2010 there is no violation of the rules. Interviewing ...[text shortened]... Enough is enough; stop crying about it. Absent some real proof, this is just sour grapes.

So you think James Jones taking a $4 mil pay cut and not complaining about it isn't suspicious? You don't find it suspicious that a day after the reports that the Three were going to sign with Miami, James Jones' contract was bought out? You don't think it is odd that three people separately reported that the Three had decided to go with Miami in June almost 2 weeks before they actually publicly announced their decision?

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
So you think James Jones taking a $4 mil pay cut and not complaining about it isn't suspicious? You don't find it suspicious that a day after the reports that the Three were going to sign with Miami, James Jones' contract was bought out? You don't think it is odd that three people separately reported that the Three had decided to go with Miami in June almost 2 weeks before they actually publicly announced their decision?

The Three can decide in June or May or whenever that they are going to the Heat, but until the Heat sign them it doesn't matter one bit. You'll have to produce some evidence that the Heat negotiated with James and Bosh prior to July 1, 2010 in order to support a collusion charge and that you haven't done.

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
So you think James Jones taking a $4 mil pay cut and not complaining about it isn't suspicious? You don't find it suspicious that a day after the reports that the Three were going to sign with Miami, James Jones' contract was bought out? You don't think it is odd that three people separately reported that the Three had decided to go with Miami in June almost 2 weeks before they actually publicly announced their decision?

Don't you find it odd that all of those major newspapers ran a front page headline about Dewey beating Truman?
You can't base media hype or reporting for fact.
They sensationalize to sell copy.

Because there is the appearance of smoke, does not always mean there is fire.
There could be fire, but that is speculation.
Speculation is not proof or fact. EVER!!!

Originally posted by no1marauder
The Three can decide in June or May or whenever that they are going to the Heat, but until the Heat sign them it doesn't matter one bit. You'll have to produce some evidence that the Heat negotiated with James and Bosh prior to July 1, 2010 in order to support a collusion charge and that you haven't done.

In June 2010, Wade can't entice James or Bosh to want to negotiate with the Heat in July, this is clear from the rules that I have cited. If you want more proof, listen to this pod cast (http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100628_180508_6668) with Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo from June 28th, 2010. Four important things:

1. He knows Bosh is going to be a free agent four days before he actually would become a free agent.

2. He believes that there is a movement that "they" will be on the same team. Firstly, he doesn't specify who "they" means. Second of all, Colangelo shouldn't have been in any position to talk about the future actions of two or more players at that point in time. Any knowledge about what other players would do in July would have come from illicit sources.

3. While discussing the supposed theories about Bosh's future, Colangelo admits that he has to be vague in what says on the radio. He also states that any meetings among the players to discuss their futures before July 1st, 2010 would be illegal. I think it is fair to presume that is in fact the initial reason why he had to be vague from the get go.

4. Last, Colangelo emphasizes the sign-and-trade tactic that he had supposedly been planning for a while. If Bosh and Toronto went that route, Toronto would get draft picks in return for an extra year on Bosh's contract. Of course, hindsight is 20-20, Toronto did in fact complete a sign-and-trade with Miami in July 2010.

I think that this podcast shows that collusion may have occurred among not only the players, but also their agents and the GM's as well.

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
In June 2010, Wade can't entice James or Bosh to want to negotiate with the Heat in July, this is clear from the rules that I have cited. If you want more proof, listen to this pod cast (http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100628_180508_6668) with Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo from June 28th, 2010. Four important things:

1. He knows Bosh is goi ...[text shortened]... have occurred among not only the players, but also their agents and the GM's as well.

MM: In June 2010, Wade can't entice James or Bosh to want to negotiate with the Heat in July, this is clear from the rules that I have cited.

No, it isn't clear or accurate. What do you mean EXACTLY by "entice"?

Wade can say to LeBron and Bosh before June 1st anything he damn well pleases so long as he isn't a conduit for negotiations between them and the Heat PRIOR to July 1st, 2010. I've explained this patiently to you several times citing the relevant portions of the rules, but you keep ignoring this.

Stop the crybaby crap. There's nothing to prevent free agents from going where they want to go if the team wants to sign them (that's what the "free" in FA means). Your whining about it is pathetic.