greatest basketball player

Originally posted by S h a n e

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Julies Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Add Jordon amoungst those and its almost impossible to pick a "best ever"....

You know those guys are good and all, but I think Kurt Rambis is the NBA's all-time greatest.

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
You know those guys are good and all, but I think Kurt Rambis is the NBA's all-time greatest.

ha ha! Good player.

So, who is better... Kurt Rambis or AC Green? 🙂

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]Although I tend to agree, I think that such a reasoning kills any interesting discussion.

Why not speculate and choose one?

Fair enuf.

Jordon gets my vote

what do you actually base "who is the greatest ever" on? i don't know much about the sport, but is it scoring, nba titles, offense, defense, assists???

everytime i've seen jordan he's either shooting a 3 pointer or going for a dunk... all very well i guess, but what about the passing, defense???

could it be argued that jordan isnt the greatest player because where he was so good himself, the team relied on him; he didnt gel the team... that's why you would have to say bird or magic were better, that enhanced the team as opposed to themself...

like i said, i'm english and dont know a lot about this sport, but from what i've seen, magic seemed to do stuff i've never seen any other player do.... especially with regard to his passing ability

Originally posted by Doctor Rat
ha ha! Good player.

So, who is better... Kurt Rambis or AC Green? 🙂

Rambis! He popularized the taped frames.

Jordon was so good he had to try his hand at baseball just to feel human.

Originally posted by eatmybishop
what do you actually base "who is the greatest ever" on? i don't know much about the sport, but is it scoring, nba titles, offense, defense, assists???

Statistically, Michael Jordan is one of the best players to play the game. In 15 seasons, he won 10 scoring titles, 6 rings, 6 NBA Finals MVP, 9 time All-Defensive First Team, and 5 time MVP. So he basically dominated the league when he was around. Bird and Magic played extraordinarily well, but their list accolades doesn't quite match up with MJ. Jordan also had crazy career numbers: .497 fg%, .327 three pt%, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.35 spg, .82 bpg, 30.1 ppg. These numbers demonstrate how much he dominated on both ends of the court (minus perimeter shooting), defensively and offensively. Jordan was one of the most determined defenders to play the game, his career steals numbers rank among the top in the NBA. A lot of times, MJ's defense, as opposed to his offense, was the winning factor in close games.

Also, you mentioned that Jordan might not be the greatest player because he didn't enhance the team. I disagree, MJ's 5.3 career apg are solid numbers for a shooting guard who is primarily on the court to score points. MJ, in fact, had excellent passing ability and he was very capable of making the difficult behind the back passes, but MJ was also the best Bulls highflyer so he would usually be the recipient of the second, third, or fourth pass.

Lastly, MJ wasn't really known for his trey ball. He didn't really have a notable season beyond the arc until 94-95 and 95-96, which was towards the end of his championship career. Generally, a good perimeter player will shoot .400 or more from beyond the arc; as I stated earlier, Jordan shot .327 for his career beyond the arc, nothing spectacular. Jordan was Mr. Efficiency, which is most of the reason why he dominated the league and is considered the greatest. He didn't really bother with the perimeter, but rather perfected his inside and midrange game. MJ's most memorable moves are his sensational dunks, reverses in the paint, and fadeways, all which were nearly unstoppable. In the clutch, MJ would also shy away from the perimeter and go for a higher percentage shot. Most of his buzzer beaters were crossovers and a 10-15 foot J.

Anyways, I hope that helps. If you are interested in point guards, look up John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd on youtube. All are great passers like Magic.

When you look at the list of the greatest players ever, you get two lists:

1. Statistically the Greatest:

Baylor
Barry
Chamberlain
Robertson
West

2. Greatest Team:

Bird
Erving
Russell/Abdul-Jabbar
Johnson
Jordan

i think you need to look beyond stats.

Well, living here in South Texas, just let me throw in Tim Duncan's name. The Spurs have never had the big time glamour of Chi-town or LA, but they do win some ballgames and Duncan may be the #1 reason why.

Originally posted by Doctor Rat
I would still say Larry Bird was the greatest player ever, because he could give you scoring (inside, outside, right or left handed) AND rebounds AND assists AND he had that great performance-in-the-clutch ability. After Larry's back injury following the 1987-88 season, he wasn't the same player anymore, so for people who only started seeing him after tha ...[text shortened]... irst player I would pick would be Larry Bird. I think Larry Bird was the greatest player ever.

I would still say Michael Jordan was the greatest player ever, because he could give you scoring (inside, outside, right or left handed) AND rebounds AND assists AND he had that great performance-in-the-clutch ability.

There I fixed it for you. Jordan hands down was the greatest player to ever play basketball.

Originally posted by Leaadas
I would still say Michael Jordan was the greatest player ever, because he could give you scoring (inside, outside, right or left handed) AND rebounds AND assists AND he had that great performance-in-the-clutch ability.

There I fixed it for you. Jordan hands down was the greatest player to ever play basketball.

Michael Jordan was never in the top ten in FG%, FT%, PPG, Assists and Rebounds...ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

Larry Bird was.

Originally posted by Palynka
Scottie Pippen has got to be the most overrated player ever. He only seemed ok because he enjoyed the extra attention jordan had. The Bulls had incredibly crap teams, but they had the mighty Jordan.

I always had a dislike for Jordan's Bulls, but he was simply the best I've seen by far, followed closely by Bird. He's more complete than Bird, there's no question about it.

Jordan played 5 seasons in the NBA without Scottie Pippen as a teammate.

All five teams had losing records.

Jordan also never made it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie Pippen, and missed the playoffs twice.

The Bulls never received any recognition as a good defensive team until AFTER the arrival of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Jordan never made the all defensive team until he had Scottie and Grant/Rodman as teammates (I'm talking the 80s Bulls, not the 70s Bulls, who were a great defensive team).

Meanwhile, Scottie played in the NBA for 16 full seasons... all 16 teams had winning records (Jordan, five losing seasons, all without Pippen).

Scottie got as far as the Western Conference finals without Jordan, and he also got to the 2nd round in 1994, without Jordan... Jordan never made it out of the first round without Pippen.

Jordan's career playoff record without Scottie Pippen in the lineup was ONE win and TEN LOSES.

Pippen made the all-defensive first team in both 1994 and 1995...amazingly, Jordan wasn't there to "make him better".

Pippen also made the all defensive team in 1999 (Houston) and 2000 (Portland)... Pippen made the All-Defensive team no matter WHERE he played, and no matter who he played with. Jordan only made it when he had some teammates to cover his ass.


The Bulls sent THREE players to the All Star game in 1994 (without Jordan)... Pippen, Horace Grant, and BJ Armstrong... Grant played 17 years in the NBA, Armstrong 11 years... they both made the All Star team for the First and ONLY time in 1994... without Jordan being around to "Make them better"... it was Pippen who made guys better, not Jordan.

Did the Bulls fall apart after Jordan retired in 1993? Not at all... the Bulls won 57 games in 93, with Jordan, and won 55 games in 94, without him. Everybody and his mother predicted the total collapse of the Bulls in 94, after losing supposedly the "greatest player ever".

You lose the greatest player ever, and you drop only two games in the win column? Hmmmm....

Historically, when all time greats retire or leave their team, that team will USUALLY (not always) fall apart. Celtics after Russell, Bucks after Jabbar, Lakers after Wilt..heck the 76ers after Wilt... Lakers after Magic... Celtics after Bird...

The 1994 Bulls, without Jordan, gave up fewer points per game and also held their opponents to a lower FG% than the 93 Bulls, despite the loss of the "all defensive" Jordan.

Was Jordan the best shooter ever to play the game? No

Was Jordan the best passer ever to play the game? No

Was Jordan the best rebounder ever to play the game? No

Was Jordan the greatest defender ever to play the game? No (check the
1970 Celtics and compare their points allowed total to Russell's last year)

Did Jordan make his teammates better? No, I already showed you that Pippen was able to make all stars out of Armstrong and Grant, something even the great Michael Jordan couldn't come close to doing.

Did the NBA ever change the rules in order to try to curtail Jordan's "dominance"? No, in fact, the NBA made things easier for Michael, by shortening the 3 point distance (Jordan shot under 20% for the first few years of his career, and his 5 point performance in the 3 point shootout was the lowest total ever). I won't even go into the traveling/palming rules that were eliminated during Jordan's career.

Wilt once said "When you're so great that they change the very rules of the game in order to try to curtail your dominance, THEN you can say that you might have been the best ever". This happened to Wilt, and it happened to Russell.. never happened for Jordan, in fact just the opposite... they changed the rules to make it easier for him.

Did Jordan win the most titles ever? No, of course, not even close.

Was Jordan the best dunker ever to play the game? No.

Did Jordan ever make the All Star game without deserving it? Yes, with the Wizards... remember when Vince Carter was voted a starting spot, and was pressured into giving it up so Michael could play? Michael was not selected to the team by the fans OR by the coaches, but he was on the team anyway.

No one who watched rookie Allen Iverson torch Jordan for 32, 37 and 44 points would have thought Jordan was an all-defensive player, especially Iverson's coach... yet, David Stern announced that Jordan was a unanimous selection to the all defensive team that year... Obviously, the 76ers coach's vote got lost in the mail.

So what was it exactly that Jordan did best? A: Marketing.


So let's see, what do we have here:

1) Jordan never makes it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie... Scottie does so several times without Jordan.

2) Jordan never makes all-defense without Scottie (along with Grant/Rodman)... Scottie makes all defense FOUR times (with three teams) without Michael there to "make him better".

3) The 91 Finals (Bulls vs. Lakers)... Magic torched Jordan in game 1, and drew 3 quick fouls on Jordan in game two... it was here that Phil Jackson made the decision to put Scottie on Magic and move Jordan over to cover Worthy, who was playing on two bad wheels... Pippen was able to disrupt Magic's game to the point of making this move the turning point of the series...the Bulls won 4 straight after losing the opener. As a Laker fan, I wish Phil would have left Michael on Magic, because Jordan couldn't handle him, but I gotta say, putting Scottie on Magic was what did it for them.


4) Jordan plays 5 seasons without Pippen, all five teams have losing records. Pippen played 7 full seasons without Jordan, all 7 teams had winning records (I'm counting the 95 Bulls as being 'without Jordan' even though he came back at the end of the season...they still would have had a winning record regardless of what Jordan did).


5) Scottie makes all stars out of Grant and Armstong. 'Nuff said. Scottie made his teammates better, not Jordan.

6) Jordan - ONE win TEN loses in the playoffs without Scottie. Wow! The greatest EVER???


Jordan also had only one non-overtime 60 point game in his career...he had a total of five 60 point games, the Bulls were 2-3 in those games, including the playoff loss to Boston. Wilt of course, has been retired for 34 years, and still has more 60 point games than everyone else in the history of the NBA combined.

When all is said and done, without Pippen, Jordan is nothing more than an bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

Originally posted by TheBloop
Jordan played 5 seasons in the NBA without Scottie Pippen as a teammate.

All five teams had losing records.

Jordan also never made it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie Pippen, and missed the playoffs twice.

The Bulls never received any recognition as a good defensive team until AFTER the arrival of Scottie Pippen and Horace Gra ...[text shortened]... n, Jordan is nothing more than an bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

kuh-BAYum!!

🙂

while my vote is jordan...kareem voted for this guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Manigault

Bill Russell was the best player to ever play.
24 rebounds per game (career) still a record.
Unfortunately stats on blocks were not kept back then. Russell would hold that record also. I saw him block a Chamberlain jumpshot right back into his face. Russell would block shots to his teammates not just swat the ball out if bounds.
The year Chamberlain set the scoring record (40ppg) he averaged only 20 against Russell.
I watched him play when I was very young.

Trivia Question: Who is the only basketball player with more championship rings than fingers ?
Answer: Bill Russell (11)