Originally posted by boarmanI wouldn't include Warne. A test batting average of 16.8 isn't really allrounder class.
You might have to wonder about a bloke called Shane Warne if going on stats is the issue ,although he probably does not fit the all rounder catergory.
The usual measure of a good allrounder is if they have a higher batting average than bowling average. Everyone mentioned so far does, except for Wasim Akram and Richie Benaud, who come a lot closer than Shane does.
Originally posted by Varg(Warning, more stats approaching)
Also, Flintoff's figures are misleading because at the start of his career he was shockingly bad.
If you discount his first 20 or 30 Tests his figures are much much better.
I agree. For interest, here's Flintoff's figures if you divide his test career in half. I think the second set make it clear he belongs on the list.
First 32: 32 - 1293 - 25.9 - 62 - 41.2
Last 32: 32 - 1890 - 39.4 - 131 - 26.8
Originally posted by mtthwYeah thats why i said that he probably didnt fit into the all rounder catergory but going on wickets taken and runs scored and catches he is up there .
I wouldn't include Warne. A test batting average of 16.8 isn't really allrounder class.
The usual measure of a good allrounder is if they have a higher batting average than bowling average. Everyone mentioned so far does, except for Wasim Akram and Richie Benaud, who come a lot closer than Shane does.
So what did you think of Keith Miller then?
He was one that came automatically to my head ,Richie was an afterthought.
Can you add catches to the list of statistics
Test stats with added catches. I've also added Tony Greig, who also looks like he belongs on the list (let me know if anyone else should be added).
(Tests - runs - batting average - wickets - bowling average - catches)
Kapil Dev 131 - 5258 - 31.1 - 434 - 29.6 - 64
Ian Botham 102 - 5200 - 33.5 - 383 - 28.4 - 120
Imran Khan 88 - 3807 - 37.7 - 362 - 22.8 - 28
Gary Sobers 93 - 8032 - 57.8 - 235 - 34.0 - 109
Richard Hadlee 86 - 3124 - 27.2 - 431 - 22.3 - 39
Jacques Kallis 102 - 8033 - 55.8 - 200 - 31.7 - 98
Andrew Flintoff 64 - 3183 - 32.5 - 193 - 31.4 - 44
Wasim Akram 104 - 2898 - 22.6 - 414 - 23.6 - 44
Graeme Pollock 23 - 2256 - 61.0 - 4 - 51.0 - 17
Sanath Jayasuriya 106 - 6760 - 40.7 - 96 - 34.1 - 78
Shaun Pollock 102 - 3515 - 32.0 - 296 - 23.4 - 68
Keith Miller 55 - 2958 - 37.0 - 170 - 23.0 - 38
Richie Benaud 63 - 2201 - 24.5 - 248 - 27.0 - 65
Tony Greig 58 - 3599 - 40.4 - 141 - 32.2 - 87
And here are their one-day international stats. I think these are hard to compare because of the way the one-day game has changed, and the fact that so many more are played nowadays. The older players on the list played few if any.
(ODIs - runs - bat avg - run rate - wickets - bowl avg - economy - catches)
Kapil Dev225 - 3783 - 23.8 - 95.1 - 253 - 27.5 - 3.71 - 71
Ian Botham116 - 2113 - 23.2 - 79.1 - 145 - 28.5 - 3.96 - 36
Imran Khan175 - 3709 - 33.4 - 72.6 - 182 - 26.6 - 3.89 - 36
Gary Sobers 1 - 0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 1 - 31.0 - 2.95 - 1
Richard Hadlee115 - 1751 - 21.6 - 75.5 - 158 - 21.6 - 3.30 - 27
Jacques Kallis242 - 8327 - 43.6 - 70.4 - 218 - 31.3 - 4.80 - 93
Andrew Flintoff105 - 2703 - 33.4 - 88.7 - 110 - 26.1 - 4.39 - 33
Wasim Akram356 - 3717 - 16.5 - 88.3 - 502 - 23.5 - 3.89 - 88
Graeme PollockN/A
Sanath Jayasuriya370 - 11260 - 32.7 - 89.9 - 284 - 36.6 - 4.76 - 110
Shaun Pollock269 - 2935 - 24.9 - 85.4 - 364 - 23.9 - 3.72 - 101
Keith Miller N/A
Richie Benaud N/A
Tony Greig 22 - 269 - 16.8 - 71.2 - 19 - 32.6 - 4.05 - 7
Number 1 has to be Gary Sobers (bat, bowl pace, bowl wrist spin and a good fielder).
Then I think in any order
Beefy
Hadlee
Khan
Dev
Then
Kallis
Miller
Then
Freddie
Jayasuryia
Polly / Akram
That would be my top 10ish.
I am not convinced the rest can be classed as TRUE all rounders for one reason or the next
Originally posted by mtthwFreddie's batting goes through phases, and I'm willing to bet he's entered a big slump phase, he's just not got the reliability of a Kallis.
(Warning, more stats approaching)
I agree. For interest, here's Flintoff's figures if you divide his test career in half. I think the second set make it clear he belongs on the list.
First 32: 32 - 1293 - 25.9 - 62 - 41.2
Last 32: 32 - 1890 - 39.4 - 131 - 26.8
Originally posted by ElleEffSeeeYou may be right (though I hope not), but I reckon his batting will bounce back again if and when they take the captaincy off him. At least his bowling is still looking good, ankle permitting.
Freddie's batting goes through phases, and I'm willing to bet he's entered a big slump phase, he's just not got the reliability of a Kallis.
And let's face it, does anybody in the England side have the reliability of a Kallis?