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  1. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    17 Jan '08 09:15 / 1 edit
    So, we will see some of the new experimental laws (http://sport.independent.co.uk/rugby_union/article350299.ece) tried out in the Super 14 this year (http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22868050-23217,00.html)

    I like that SANZAR and the IRB are moving the game forward and reviewing older laws in a dynamic game.
    The game must attempt to evolve and rule changes are where we need to start.


    Here are some of my thoughts on the rule changes:

    Line outs
    Quick throw in can go backwards.
    Good idea, this is happening in any case now, so it's not blown up consistently - good that it is formal now.

    Sanctions
    For all offenses other than offside, not entering through the gate, and Law 10-Foul Play, the sanction is a free kick.
    So what does that include? I can only think of collapsing scrums, although I think that may be included under foul play too... So nothing really changes?

    Inside the 22-metre line
    Passing a ball back into the 22 means you can't kick directly into touch.
    Not sure if this will be implemented - Articles are not absolutely clear.
    Good change if it's implemented- hopefully teams will run it a bit more.


    Too bad they decided not to implement the: Any number of players in a line-out experimental law - that has been irritating me for some time, although I would like to see them change/clarify the wording to something like: Any number of players can be involved in a lineout, with a minimum of two players present from either team.
    Other lineout elements that needs to be looked at are:
    - The tackling of a player after catching the ball, which is basically collapsing a maul.
    - Scrumhalf entering the lineout should be scrapped.
    - The lineout should just end when the ball is thrown in - no more complicated rules.
    - If the ball lands beyond the 15 meter line - turnover.

    What I would also like to see:
    - Better specification of what constitutes 'advantage'.
    - Teams need to be able to take quick penalties whenever they want and must not be stopped by the ref, but then the 10 meter rule needs to fall away completely if they decide to take a quick tap.
    - Something serious needs to be done about scrums. I believe there should be no more hit-in. Teams should line up, bind front rows and scrummage for the ball - it shouldn't be about who got the best hit at the start. Just get the scrum steady and we'll cut out a whole lot of time wasted.

    These are all rule changes that would really make the game faster.

    Anyway, it's good to see the governing bodies thinking about the game, but it's too bad they seem to still 'drop the ball' when it comes to turning the game into real spectacle of running rugby.


    Another thing I would like to see is a new warning and cards system. It could work like this:

    I will use the ruck breakdown as an example, because this is the most contentious issue and one of my serious pet peeves about the current game.
    - There will be no more 'coaching' by referees. The ref will shout "RUCK!" when a ruck is formed and will only shout "HANDS OUT!" once. No more continual warnings. Only one.
    - If an opposing player continues to infringe, the ref will shout "WARNING: HANDS IN RUCK" and will give advantage (which needs to be looked at on it's own - but that's for another time).
    - After 3 warnings has been given for a specific offense - the ref will show a green card to the side, giving them a team-wide official warning for the offense.
    - If any player from the side on a warning commits the same offense again, he should get a yellow card - sin binning him for 5 minutes. A side is allowed two yellow cards per offense.
    - If any player from the side that has received 2 yellow cards commits the same offense again, he should get an orange card - sin binning him for 10 minutes. A side is only given 1 orange card per offense.
    - If any player from the side that has received an orange card commits the same offense again, he should get a red card - sending him off. This should continue all through the game.

    A system like this should stamp out some of the crap that happens at ruck time and should get the game flowing again. It will mean after 6 of the same offenses, in this case hands in the ruck, players will start trudging off to the showers, which I think is the only way to deter this type of foul play.
  2. 17 Jan '08 10:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Sanctions
    For all offenses other than offside, not entering through the gate, and Law 10-Foul Play, the sanction is a free kick.
    So what does that include? I can only think of collapsing scrums, although I think that may be included under foul play too... So nothing really changes?
    What about collapsing the maul, hands in the ruck, and not releasing the ball? Maybe others.
  3. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    17 Jan '08 11:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by mtthw
    What about collapsing the maul, hands in the ruck, and not releasing the ball? Maybe others.
    Looks like you're right. Why on earth would they take away penalties for offenses at ruck time? That's the area where most penalties come from, because the opposing players want to kill the quick ball.
    Hopefully this is not the case...

    If the IRB wants to 'speed up' the game, they need to crack down even MORE on offenses committed at the break down.
  4. Standard member weststigersbob
    High Class Blunderer
    20 Jan '08 12:54
    The idea behind the free kicks is to try and promote tries instead of easy penalty goals. A side can continually slow down the ball, but they won't get any respite from attacking rugby because sides just tap it and run. It also eliminates boring 5 metre scrums and line-outs, which can become a bit of a lottery. It doesn't work (I saw a lot of ARC games, and still the ball was continually slowed down illegally), but its a start.
  5. 21 Jan '08 15:41
    Crowley you must be a back - the scrum should go back to how it was before this crouch engage business - I am not seeing less scrums collapse now than before - the "hit" is part of scrummaging and I would also be surpised if with out it you got more collapses - tends to tighten up the scrum before the real pushing starts.

    Quick throw in - good idea

    More free kicks then pens - probably a good idea - I assume yellow cards can still be given for persistent offenders.

    Not kicking straight into touch if ball passed back into 22 - not sure what the advantage will be - OK ball will be kept in play but it will simply be booted from outside the 22 down the middle of the park it will not encourage running from kicking team I reckon just more aerial ping pong.

    Completely disagree with your line out thoughts leave it as it is.

    And as for your card system the game is only 80mins long! It is fine as it is - rugby isn't and never will be about runnign backs only - if that is what you want watch League.

    Well that's my thoughts anyhow.....

    Predictions for 6N?
  6. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    21 Jan '08 17:19
    Originally posted by Mat Kelley
    Crowley you must be a back - the scrum should go back to how it was before this crouch engage business - I am not seeing less scrums collapse now than before - the "hit" is part of scrummaging and I would also be surpised if with out it you got more collapses - tends to tighten up the scrum before the real pushing starts.

    Quick throw in - good idea

    ...[text shortened]... is what you want watch League.

    Well that's my thoughts anyhow.....

    Predictions for 6N?
    Ha! I played lock and a little flanker.

    I can't understand why you'd think having a properly defined warning system in place would make the game longer? This will mean less talks by the ref, taking players aside and preaching to them - hell, it will probably maker the games quicker.
    Warning. Warning. Cards.
    Seriously, what you could see wrong with it is beyond me. It will mean players get sent off easier and this will translate into less offenses, which will mean cleaner and better rugby.
  7. 22 Jan '08 05:13 / 1 edit
    Apologies for getting you position wrong - just sounded like one of the girls! My comment on 80 mins was not that the game would become longer but with so many cards to fish through it could take 5 minutes to find the right one - it was a somewhat tongue in cheek comment.

    I see nothing wrong with what is currently there - I would allow a more liberal use of the boot. I play 6 therefore I have had seven bells of crap stamped out of me on many occasions but not once did I not know a) what I was doing and b) what was about to happen to me.

    2 weeks ago I "cynically" slowed the ball the opposition prop rucked me and I still have the stud marks - he got yellow carded - after the game I apologised that he got yellow carded for the reasons above.

    If somebody rucks somebody's head that should be red card. but the rest of the body heals. (just ask Shelford's scrotum!). It sure stops peoples hands getting in the way.

    And there is no way I would have been penalised for slowing the ball - did not slow it for that long a ref would never give it. And before you castigate me everybody goes into a game to "play the referee". Any edge is vital.
  8. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    05 Mar '08 10:16
    So, the new ELVs have been used for the past few weeks of the S14 and unfortunately the SA teams can't seem to get to grips with it

    Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a Super14 discussion, because my boys are doing BADLY, but just a talk about the 'new' rules.


    The ELV really puts the pressure on the referee now to handle the game well. Some referees have not and this has led to some foul play at times going really unpunished.
    Refs really need to punish repeat offenders, but now this means they have to take out cards more. This reduces games to non-contests at times, so Freek Burger, who until two years ago was the manager of referees at the South African Rugby Union, came up with a pretty cool solution to this:

    He drew up a proposal where he suggested to the International Rugby Board that instead of sending players off for ten minutes, a yellow card should signify an early shower.

    But instead of forcing his team to play with 14 men, Burger proposed that the yellow carded player should be replaced. It is his argument that playing 15 against 14 makes it an unfair contest, and has too much of a dramatic impact on the way the game is played and, quite often, also the end result.

    There are probably some readers out there who are now asking “But surely the team should be punished in some way?” The answer to that is that they will be. Under Burger’s proposal, you would not be allowed to reinforce the bench during play, so a yellow card effectively removes a substitute option, and the more yellow cards you get the more the impact is felt later when you would be wanting to employ super-subs.

    And having a key player removed from the game for the rest of the match is not exactly something most teams would want either. So it is not as if the team really wins from the scenario proposed by Burger.

    Ultimately the real winner though is he spectator because keeping it as a 15 against 15 match does not cheapen the occasion or too dramatically alter the contest.

    From: http://www.supersport.co.za/rugby/columns.aspx?id=5951&headline=Freek%e2%80%99s+proposal+should+be+looked+at
  9. 05 Mar '08 13:20
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Looks like you're right. Why on earth would they take away penalties for offenses at ruck time? That's the area where most penalties come from, because the opposing players want to kill the quick ball.
    Hopefully this is not the case...

    If the IRB wants to 'speed up' the game, they need to crack down even MORE on offenses committed at the break down.
    Agreed. Penalising offenders at the breakdown less harshly isn't going to sex up the game. It means teams like Ireland will just carry on doing what they've always done safe in the knowledge that the opposition won't even get a shot at goal.
  10. 06 Mar '08 17:20
    Originally posted by Angry Boy
    Agreed. Penalising offenders at the breakdown less harshly isn't going to sex up the game. It means teams like Ireland will just carry on doing what they've always done safe in the knowledge that the opposition won't even get a shot at goal.
    teams will be able to slow down th ball at ruck time witout giving away a penalty which will mean less running rugby
  11. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    07 Mar '08 06:39 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by jacko13
    teams will be able to slow down th ball at ruck time witout giving away a penalty which will mean less running rugby
    Not necessarily. You haven't seen the Crusaders and Blues play Super 14 this year, have you?
    If you try to play boring 10 man rugby, you will struggle, but if you keep the ball alive and make a big effort to recycle the ball quickly there is a lot more running rugby, because the defending team can't kill a ball that is moving all the time.
  12. 07 Mar '08 16:49
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Not necessarily. You haven't seen the Crusaders and Blues play Super 14 this year, have you?
    If you try to play boring 10 man rugby, you will struggle, but if you keep the ball alive and make a big effort to recycle the ball quickly there is a lot more running rugby, because the defending team can't kill a ball that is moving all the time.
    Unless they jump on top of it or grab it instead of rolling away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  13. Standard member Tirau Dan
    Enjoying Life
    10 Mar '08 07:06
    Gotta say..loved the Chiefs lucky win against the Cheetahs on Saturday.. watched it at a holiday resort in a half drunken very merry state with a bunch of very convival SA'cans.. a great time was had by all and the game game certainly flowed.
  14. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    10 Mar '08 13:48
    Originally posted by jacko13
    Unless they jump on top of it or grab it instead of rolling away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Repeat offenders still get yellow-carded. In fact, I believe the cards should come out quicker now - let's see some tries!

    See my post above about the proposal by ex-referee Freek Burger about changing the card rules.
    I personally think it's a great idea.
  15. Subscriber Crowley
    Not Aleister
    10 Mar '08 13:49
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Gotta say..loved the Chiefs lucky win against the Cheetahs on Saturday.. watched it at a holiday resort in a half drunken very merry state with a bunch of very convival SA'cans.. a great time was had by all and the game game certainly flowed.
    They must be one of the unluckiest teams in this competition - almost always close and then they'll lose it at the end...