Computer cheaters

Its a shame you should have to keep playing "him".

His moves do match up to an engine.

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
Its a shame you should have to keep playing "him".

His moves do match up to an engine.

Gray: Can you shed some light on the Trackhead21 cheating issue?

The word in the forums when he disappeared for a month or so was that he was discovered as an engine user and left the site. But evidently that wasn't the case?

And now people have resorted to making follow-up comments about him in the forums. So...as the main unoffical cheating-mod on the site right now.....what does YOUR analysis say?

This doesn't really effect me...I suck to much to bother playing him. But I'd hate seeing somebodies rep. sullied by these snide comments I keep running into in the forums (without reason that is).

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
Its a shame you should have to keep playing "him".

His moves do match up to an engine.

I'd like to see someone run these games in progress of mine against Geoffkus through "an engine":

Game 756635
Game 756636

Specifically move 12 of the latter game.

If he is using an engine, it's not a tactically strong one - personally I think he's simply outplaying me in most of our current games.

Incidentally, I thought there was a policy to remove threads like these at present - they serve absolutely no purpose.

Originally posted by arrakis
I sent this to the Vikings clan leader:

Dear team captain,

geoffkus is guilty of using a computer program to make his moves in your league. He matches Fritz at the 1st choice for his moves. I am continuing my last game with him under protest... and I expect you, as the team captain to do something about your teammate.

I am forwarding this message to ...[text shortened]... buster forum.

arrakis

greyeyesofsorrow will back me on this. We caught geoffkus cheating!

Considering the fact that James Woodley is on Arrakis' team in the clan leagues (Arrakis is team leader of the Fun Clam in the 3 day league) and there is far more evidence that JW is a cheater than Geoffkus, I find this post nervy in the extreme.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Considering the fact that James Woodley is on Arrakis' team in the clan leagues (Arrakis is team leader of the Fun Clam in the 3 day league) and there is far more evidence that JW is a cheater than Geoffkus, I find this post nervy in the extreme.

I finally did find a game where JW used CM10 to cheat and I immediately posted the information as well as asked the group to come up with some rules to deal with all cheaters. I defended JW earlier because the games submitted to me were terrible games that showed no program use. greyeyesof sorrow sent me the one that was proof. Our objective is to report everybody that we find solid evidence of cheating. I must tell you though, I'm still waiting for some recommendations about JW and here's why:

He cheated in a game from November, and as yet it looks like he is not cheating in the league. I asked him to join the league before I had proof that he cheated and when I talked to him (email) he said he wasn't using a computer. Well, I leave it up to his opponents. If they think he's still cheating I'll ask him to leave. Fair enough?

Originally posted by arrakis
I finally did find a game where JW used CM10 to cheat and I immediately posted the information as well as asked the group to come up with some rules to deal with all cheaters. I defended JW earlier because the games submitted to me were ter ...[text shortened]... hink he's still cheating I'll ask him to leave. Fair enough?

No. Your statement is not true; there was plenty of evidence of cheating, you just refused to admit it. His sudden, unexplained, mind-boggling rise in ratings with victories over numerous players who were previously rated 300 or more points higher then him and a long unbeaten streak broken only by losses in games he choose to lose (Exy's, Tlai1992 and Nathan March's) is conclusive evidence of cheating. If it was not, you would have answered my simple question as to the mechanism whereas a below average player like JW can suddenly, without any gradual improvement, show the remarkable increase in playing skills that JW has. And "his terrible games" have allowed him to rise in ratings almost up to you, an experienced player, even though he started at a low level and that rise took place in only 2 months!!! Stop feeding us BS, make him resign his games and have Latex Bishop kick him out of your clan; further posts like the one above will get the only response they deserve: a LMFAO.

Originally posted by no1marauder
No. Your statement is not true; there was plenty of evidence of cheating, you just refused to admit it. His sudden, unexplained, mind-boggling rise in ratings with victories over numerous players who were previously rated 300 or more points higher then him and a long unbeaten streak broken only by losses in games he choose to lose (Exy's, Tlai19 ...[text shortened]... of your clan; further posts like the one above will get the only response they deserve: a LMFAO.

I am disappointed in you my friend. I didn't know anything about hameswoodley until 2 weeks ago when someone sent me an email to check his games. At that time I looked at everything that was sent to me, but unfortunately the games sent to me were not ones proving computer abuse.

I have read some of your posts and I see that you enjoy sparring with players in the forums. That's fine, but it's not something I like to do, so if you or anyone else needs any assistance from me please send me an email.

Originally posted by arrakis
I am disappointed in you my friend. I didn't know anything about hameswoodley until 2 weeks ago when someone sent me an email to check his games. At that time I looked at everything that was sent to me, but unfortunately the games sent to ...[text shortened]... nyone else needs any assistance from me please send me an email.

Thank you for not answering my question. I don't need any assistance from you, so I have no reason to PM or e-mail you. I post publicly and as JW's blatant cheating affects the entire community I will continue to do so. I continue to be extremely surprised and disappointed that you prefer to have a cheat on your team, but your squad will eventually pay the price for your and Latex Bishop's folly.

Originally posted by arrakis
I sent this to the Vikings clan leader:

Dear team captain,

geoffkus is guilty of using a computer program to make his moves in your league. He matches Fritz at the 1st choice for his moves. I am continuing my last game with him under protest... and I expect you, as the team captain to do something about your teammate.

I am forwarding this message to ...[text shortened]... buster forum.

arrakis

greyeyesofsorrow will back me on this. We caught geoffkus cheating!

Maybe he is cheating, but in the TOS is or Russ hasn't put it there, that you can't make accusations in the forums. So don't. The rest you did was good, send his leader a message and send Russ a message. The accusations in the forums need to stop right now, or this site will lose players, and not only cheaters.

Originally posted by tejo
Maybe he is cheating, but in the TOS is or Russ hasn't put it there, that you can't make accusations in the forums. So don't. The rest you did was good, send his leader a message and send Russ a message. The accusations in the forums need ...[text shortened]... right now, or this site will lose players, and not only cheaters.

Tejo, you are making me laugh soooooo much. :-)

If the mods didnt want this in the forums they would delete it. Frankly I think people who have been proven to cheat should be named. Otherwise how would anyone else know not to play them, at least till the chess mods start, right now we cant name everyone since it would probably start a site wide riot. But the chess mods start soon, so fun fun fun dont you think Tejo ? :-)

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
Tejo, you are making me laugh soooooo much. :-)

If the mods didnt want this in the forums they would delete it. Frankly I think people who have been proven to cheat should be named. Otherwise how would anyone else know not to play them, at least till the chess mods start, right now we cant name everyone since it would probably start a site wide riot. But the chess mods start soon, so fun fun fun dont you think Tejo ? :-)

It's the proven thing that's an issue, isn't it.
Using multiple accounts or spewing CM10k analysis is one thing, but are we now assuming that anyone you say is using a computer is proven to be so? I find that quite worrying - I'd prefer to get a small group of people on this mod team to check PC use, and leave any public statements of cheating until then.

What I WOULD be interested in seeing however Greyeyes, is some idication of how important PC power and memory is to the moves Fritz, Shredder etc. suggest. One of the reasons I'm certain Ironman31 is not a computer is that I feel it would have to be Deep Blue in order to have his W/L/D record (especially assuming a few other high rated people are computers). If there are significant differences between setups, how can you be sure someone is '90% fritz'. Given the outcry there will be once the first person claims they've been unfairly treated, some idea of the basics would be welcomed!

You dont have to turn to me for that, theres plenty of websites that have detailed results of engines running on different specs, providing a much wider range of data than my personal experience can offer.

I really hope people dont ever trust anyone when they make a chess statement, even something like Na3 is a bad opening move could be turned on its head if it was found that was the starting move of the perfect game. I havent made a public accusation since the chess mods have started (with the exception of JW) iv said a bit in the threads and confirmed other things.

The 90% fritz is pretty easy, just by looking at a game you can get a feel if its been played by an engine or not. Basicly the way id go about seeing if someone uses an engine or not is to try and prove they dont, a good start would be to find key moves, a move with a whole load of ideas and variations all of them good and then check with one Fritz likes. I dont want to go into lots of detail in the open forum because it will just mean giving enough information for people to cheat and not be caught. After you have found the key moves, found an engine that picks those moves, you can start to run games. Its then just a case of %. Im going to stand by my statement that no human players like a engine game after game, unless someone can prove otherwise. You shouldnt run down the list of moves on an engine looking for match ups, because you would find a match to everyone on the site then, but top two moves over 90% then yes its an engine. As for the time you run it, basicly till you get a match or the move clearly isnt fritz, however you shouldnt jump about wildy with time either, If you arent getting matchs for the same time between moves then its not fritz, since the top fritz moves dont really jump about that much, for 20 seconds they do go wild but then its only position that changes, as fritz picks the one it likes best. I imagine most cheaters in the top block use about 5 mins at least. Someone pointed out it was odd that when Fritz does analysis its starts with the last move and works to the first. There is a reason for that in that Fritz stores the variations it has looked at, so if its going backwards though a game it can see ahead better. The people who cheat with Fritz use it going forward. Quickly testing for cheating games can be done going backwards, but you need to do it forwards to check. Since you need to recreate the game they played with no help from the game itself or you.

I'll try and make it clear, iv posted the number of variations in chess a few times I wont do it again but imagine this.

A player on the north pole playing someone and a player on the south pole playing someone else. The chances of these players moves matching up to each other for even 1 game is tiny id think you would agree? However change those players for two engines and the moves would match up. The 10% inaccurace between the pcs will be speed. The players could play game after game and you wouldnt find much corrolation between them, however the engines would keep running the same varations, the same ideas because that is the way they are programed and it is set in stone, they are the same, the games will be the same.

Now a player in the north pole and an engine in the south pole, do think that time after time the player will match 90% of the engines thoughts and ideas?


For all the chess games ever played im not sure how many will match up to each other, but for games 40 moves long I cant think there will be that many at all. Maybe less than 1000 games, iv no idea really but im sure the number is small, since we'd all have seen the GM games that would match up to each other. But some peoples games on this site match fritz when you just let fritz pick its own moves with no human aid at all, you have to admit that is dodgy.


Really its not that hard to tell a computer cheater and a player apart.

Hm we can run a test Osse. If we can find one more person willing to help us who has any engine.

Play unrated games, one of us plays human the other plays engine. Once we are done the third person checks if our engine moves match theirs. Im sure they will. Or even more intresting. How about I pick a player, and tell you which move they are going to make in each of their games before they make it, would that be enough proof ? :-)

could you run a few test games that we´re sure aren´t engines. How about david tebb v´s ironman31, or my latest game against bbarr (which I suspect will match up >90😵. Isn´t simply matching moves to an engine suseptable to a good player making good moves that a good engine would have picked? What if the first 20 moves were recognised opening, and the last 10 forced? Could matches be found when engine use didn´t occur? Especially if you start fiddling with engine thought time, 1st-3rd choice move by any engine counts as a match, etc etc, which vastly change the likelyhood of a >90% match.

I´m not against constructing a good system for rooting out cheats, but is using >90% engine match as foolproof as you seem to suggest?