Computer cheaters

Originally posted by El Bruto
Dear chessfriends!!
If you want discouver an engine use there's a important point!
You must find the ! moves or !! moves.
If a player see all the !! moves in 100 games it's clearly a CHEATER!!!
But second problem!!
How decided that a move il very good and difficult for a man?
Only a GM or a strong International Master can decide, so we aren't able ...[text shortened]... for you but this the true !!
I too have problem if I decide to enter in RHP policy.
Bye Bye

So basically you are suggesting that us mere mortals should just lie down and accept the jameswoodleys of the world because we are too stupid to see the difference between a man and an engine....

Or do you actually have something constructive to add?

Why does the percent/analysis means nothing? If you feel these analyses are meaningless tell us why. Because to my inferior, unworthy brain they appear to be anything but meaningless.

If a player's moves match an engine, game after game, would you consider that to be meaningless? Or does it only become meaningful if you are a GM? That only a GM or IM could possibly recognise a pattern of engine abuse?

If someone tosses a coin 20 times, and gets 20 heads, and then repeats this feat again and again, do you really have to win the Nobel Physics Prize to see that the coin is fake?

4 more games.

The first two, I (1762) played against geoffkus (2098) in a recent tournament.

The third game geoffkus (1337) loses to sajid123 (1305) back in August, before his rating begins to skyrocket.

The last game is between two very stong players on RHP, kingcaptured (2133) and El Bruto (1980) and once again demonstrates why strong and honest chess players have nothing to fear from this kind of analysis.

[Event "Southern Hemisphere Duel"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2004.11.15"]
[Round "1"]
[White "geoffkus"]
[Black "Gatecrasher"]
[Result "1-0"]
[GameId "782760"]

{Book}
1.e4 c5
2.Nf3 e6

{CM10 best move in brackets where it disagrees}

3.Nc3 a6 {Nc6}
4.d4 cxd4
5.Nxd4 b5 {Bb4}
6.Bd3 {a3} Qb6 {Bb7}
7.Nf3 Nc6 {Bc5}
8.O-O Qb8 {Bb7}
9.Re1 {Be3} Nge7 {Bd6}
10.Be3 d6 {Ng6}
11.Ne2 {a4} Ng6 {Ne5}
12.a4 b4 {bxa4}
13.Ned4 Bb7 {Nce5}
14.Nxc6 Bxc6
15.Nd4 Bd7
16.Qe2 e5 {Qb7}
17.Nb3 Qb7
18.Na5 {Bc4} Qc7
19.Nc4 Bc6 {a5}
20.a5 Bb5 {Qb7}
21.Nb6 Bxd3
22.cxd3 {Qxd3} Rb8
23.Rac1 {Rec1} Qb7 {Qd8}
24.Nd5 f6 {Qd7}
25.Rc7 Qb5
26.Qg4 Kd8 {f5}
27.Bb6 1-0

Geoffkus/CM10 19/25 = 76.0%
Gatecrasher/CM10 8/25 = 36.0%


[Event "Southern Hemisphere Duel"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2004.11.15"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Gatecrasher"]
[Black "geoffkus"]
[TimeControl "-"]
[Result "0-1"]
[GameId "782759"]

{Book}
1.d4 d5
2.e4 dxe4
3.Nc3 Nf6
4.f3 Nc6

{CM10 best move in brackets where it disagrees}
5.d5 Ne5
6.fxe4 e6
7.Nf3 Bd6
8.Bf4 Nd3+ {Ng6}
9.Qxd3 Bxf4
10.Qb5+ {g3} c6 {Bd7}
11.dxc6 bxc6
12.Qxc6+ Bd7
13.Qc5 Ng4
14.Rd1 {Bd3} Be3
15.Qd6 {Qh5} Nf2
16.Qxd7+ {Nb5} Qxd7
17.Bb5 {Rxd7} Qxb5
18.Nxb5 Nxh1
19.Nc7+ Ke7
20.Nxa8 Nf2
21.Rb1 {Nc7} Rxa8
22.Ke2 Bb6
23.e5 {Nd2} Ng4
24.c4 Bc7
25.b3 {B4} Nxe5
26.Ng5 {Nxe5} Rd8
27.Rd1 {g3} Rxd1
28.Kxd1 h6
29.Ne4 Ng4 {black matches CM10 for 19 consecutive moves} 0-1

Geoffkus/CM10 match 23/25 = 92.0%
Gatecrasher/CM10 match 15/25 = 60.0%


[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2004.08.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "sajid123"]
[Black "geoffkus"]
[Result "1-0"]
[GameId "646057"]

{Book moves}

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.c3 d5

{CM10 in brackets where it differs}

4.Bd3 {exd5} dxe4 {Nf6}
5.Bxe4 {Bxe4} Nf6
6.Qa4 {Bxc6+} Nxe4
7.Qxe4 f5
8.Qc4 {Qe2} e4
9.Ng1 {Nd4} Be7 {Qe7}
10.Nh3 {Ne2} Qd6
11.O-O {exd3ep} Be6
12.Qe2 O-O-O
13.Qe3 {Re1} Bc4 {Bf4}
14.Rd1 {Rc1} g6 {Bf7}
15.b3 Bd3
16.Ba3 Qd7 {Qf6}
17.Bxe7 Qxe7
18.b4 {Re1} a5
19.a3 {bxa5} axb4 {Qf7}
20.axb4 Bc2 {Kb8}
21.Rc1 Bxb1 {Bb3}
22.Rcxb1 Kb8 {Qd6}
23.b5 Ne5
24.Qa7+ Kc8
25.Qa8+ {Rb4} Kd7
26.Qxb7 Ke8 {Qc5}
27.d4 {Ra7} exd3ep
28.f4 {Nf4} Qc5+
29.Kh1 Qxc3 {Nc4}
30.Rc1 {b6} Qd4
31.fxe5 Qxe5 {d2}
32.Re1 Qxe1+ {Kf7}
33.Rxe1+ Kf8
34.Qxc7 {Qc6} Re8
35.Qd6+ {Rxe8+} Kg7
36.Qd7+ Kh6
37.Rxe8 Rxe8
38.Qxe8 d2
39.Qe3+ {Qf8+} g5 {f4}
40.Qxg5++ 1-0

sajid123/CM10 matches 19/37 = 51.4%
geoffkus/CM10 matches 22/36 = 61.1%


[Event "Clan"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2004.07.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "kingcaptured"]
[Black "El Bruto"]
[Result "0-1"]
[GameId "598882"]

{Book}
1.Nf3 f5
2.g3 Nf6
3.Bg2 g6
4.d4 Bg7
5.O-O d6
6.c4 O-O
7.Nc3 Nc6
8.d5 Ne5
9.Nxe5 dxe5

{CM10 in brackets where it differs}

10.Qb3 Kh8 {e6}
11.Rd1 a6
12.Bg5 {c5} Nd7 {Qd6}
13.Rac1 {Qa3} h6
14.Be3 Rb8 {Kh7}
15.f3 {Qc2} Qe8 {c5}
16.Ba7 {c5} Ra8
17.Bf2 Rb8 {b6}
18.c5 Qf7
19.Rd2 {e4} g5 {Re8}
20.e4 f4
21.Qa3 {Rdc2} Nf6
22.Qa5 Ne8
23.Qb4 g4 {e6}
24.fxg4 Bxg4
25.Rd3 {h3} Qh5
26.Re1 {Qb3}Bh3 {f3}
27.Nd1 {Bf1} Nf6
28.Qb3 Ng4
29.Bh1 {Bf3} Qg6 {Nxf2}
30.Rf3 Nf6 {h5}
31.Bg2 {Rc3} Bxg2
32.Kxg2 Nh7 {h5}
33.Qb4 {h4} Ng5 {e6}
34.Rd3 {Ra3} a5
35.Qa4 b5 {Qh5}
36.cxb6ep cxb6
37.Rc3 b5 {Qh5}
38.Qb3 Rf6 {e6]
39.Qc2 b4 {Qh5}
40.Rc7 Nf3 {Rd8}
41.Rf1 {Rh1} Nxh2
42.Rh1 fxg3
43.Ba7 {Bc5} Qg4 {Rbf8}
44.Qd3 Rbf8
45.d6 {Rc6} exd6
46.Rxg7 {Bb6} Qxg7 {Kxg7}
47.Bb6 Rg8
48.b3 {a3} Qg4
49.Qe3 Rf2+
50.Nxf2 gxf2+
51.Kxf2 Qg2+
0-1

kingcaptured/CM10 matches 24/42 = 57.1%
El Bruto/CM10 matches 23/42 = 54.8%

Originally posted by no1marauder
Considering the fact that James Woodley is on Arrakis' team in the clan leagues (Arrakis is team leader of the Fun Clam in the 3 day league) and there is far more evidence that JW is a cheater than Geoffkus, I find this post nervy in the extreme.

Sorry I can't find the original thread so have responed here regarding geoffuk but I have messaged both Cludi (the leader of our clan the vikings) and geoffus to bring this to their attention in the hope that this can be cleared up and to give geoff the chance to respond, if not I will leave the clan as I hate cheaters (but believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty and will defend him until proven guilty and will stand by the vikings until so proved. BUT I agree it needs clarification
Steve

Originally posted by stevetodd
Sorry I can't find the original thread so have responed here regarding geoffuk but I have messaged both Cludi (the leader of our clan the vikings) and geoffus to bring this to their attention in the hope that this can be cleared up and to give geoff the chance to respond, if not I will leave the clan as I hate cheaters (but believe everyone is innocent un ...[text shortened]... guilty and will stand by the vikings until so proved. BUT I agree it needs clarification
Steve

Game 607376


Game 617406

Then another bodged opening, yet wow out of no where, his play picks up.

Game 669342

I agree geoffuk come out and explain! :-)

Some of you may wonder why I haven't posted in this thread yet, since much of the discussion is about Geoffkus being a cheater or not.
The reason for me being passive this long is, that I don't like this kind of public "guillotine" (probably misspelled🙄)

But I do think I'll make a few statements to the Geoffkus "case".

1. I've been PM'ed by a few players who told me Geoffkus is cheating
2. I've asked these for evidence - none was given
3. I've looked through the example games in this thread
4. I've PM'ed Russ - he wants to await the coming of "cheat police"
5. I've contacted Geoffkus
6. I'm not 100% convinced that Geoffkus is guilty - therefor I haven't kicked him.
7. I agree 100% with Tejo saying, that posting accusations in public forums is not good for anyone
8. I agree 100% with no1 saying, that Arrakis is too keen on accusing others without doing anything about JW
9. If the cheat police finds Geoffkus is guilty he will be kicked immediately
10. Until then, Geoffkus has the right of the accused being innocent until proven otherwise.

That's my stand in this very unfortunate case for both Geoffkus, The Vikings and RHP in general. Hopefully the game moderators will be in place very soon. We need them to clean up!

Originally posted by tmetzler
Gray: Can you shed some light on the Trackhead21 cheating issue?

The word in the forums when he disappeared for a month or so was that he was discovered as an engine user and left the site. But evidently that wasn't the case?

And now people have resorted to making follow-up comments about him in the forums. So...as the main unoffical cheating-mod ...[text shortened]... p. sullied by these snide comments I keep running into in the forums (without reason that is).

Funny that this was the second post on this thread and no one ever responded to it. I would love someone to though. I am curious to know what somone else's analysis says of my play. I know back those 2 months ago one person posted what he found but being that that was a made up analysis a real one would be nice. I would think my mid-game play would be somewhere around 60% maybe a bit higher. As for people making follow up comments, from what I've seen only one idiot on the site has been making follow-up comments about me. But as you can aslo see no one pays him any mind. Thing is we all know he's an idiot, the mods know he's an idiot and Russ seems to know too. I have better things to do with my time than respond to someone's stupidity in an online forum, so thats why you don't see any responses from me to those comments. I guess others feel the same way as you don't see responses from them either. As for sucking too much to bother playing me, no one sucks too much to bother playing me. I usally offer advice during my games and point out those small mistakes my opponents make that allow me to win. Some have said their strength of play has increased after having played a few with me, so no one sucks too much. I simply love to play against whoever. And Grayeyes thanks for saying that you "thought" I was calling fischer an engine user. I know I said that I wasn't which is why you said, thought, but not sure if I ever told you why we still had a game going for all that time. It's an unrated game where I am playing against shredder 8, so even when I was out of timebank he never claimed the win because it would be pointless. We still have the game now but I'm not even sure if should continue it since I hadnt played it in like 2 months. Anyway, in closing, do what I do, ignore stupid comments by stupid people. There is no reason to encourage them to continue and when they realize no one is paying them any mind they tend to go away.

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
Funny that this was the second post on this thread and no one ever responded to it.

T21: I want to make sure you know I wasn't accusing you. However you SHOULD know that just after you disappeared on the site. There were QUITE A FEW (not just one) people making comments in the forums saying that the reason you left, was that you were discovered to be an engine user. That's why I was surprised when you showed up active on the site again.

I'll have to play you sometime, I could stand to get better, and don't mind constructive advice.

Originally posted by tmetzler
T21: I want to make sure you know I wasn't accusing you. However you SHOULD know that just after you disappeared on the site. There were QUITE A FEW (not just one) people making comments in the forums saying that the reason you left, was that you were discovered to be an engine user. That's why I was surprised when you showed up active on the site aga ...[text shortened]... l have to play you sometime, I could stand to get better, and don't mind constructive advice.

Oh, I thought you meant people making comments recently because one person seems to have nothing better to do than follow my posts in the forum. Thought that was what you were talking about. And yes I know you werent accusing me.

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
Funny that this was the second post on this thread and no one ever responded to it. I would love someone to though. I am curious to know what somone else's analysis says of my play. I know back those 2 months ago one person posted what ...[text shortened]... they realize no one is paying them any mind they tend to go away.

Glad you've stood up for yourself at last.

I've analysed the deciding game in the Grand Split One Seven III.

I've done it differently to the previous ones. Now I show whether the move was CM's 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice (for info).

I also look at the idea of "forced moves", where CM's 1st choice was a half point or greater than the 2nd move. on these moves there should be a high level of agreement between CM and the players. Where the player match these moves, I indicate a *, where player "misses" them I indicate a ?.

Finally I give the % match to CM's 1st choice, and also give an "Unforced" score which excludes forced moves. This last score should give a better indication of engine use.

[Event "Grand Split One Seven III"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2004.11.23"]
[Round "2"]
[White "TRACKHEAD21"]
[Black "cludi"]
[Result "1-0"]
[GameID “794968”]

{Book moves}
1.d4 Nf6
2.c4 e6
3.Nf3 b6
4.Nc3 Bb7
5.Bg5 Bb4

{CM10 analysis: 1st, 2nd , 3rd preference, * forced move, ? missed move}
6.Nd2 h6 {1}
7.Bh4 {1} c5 {3}
8.a3 {3} Bxc3 {1}
9.bxc3 {1*} O-O {2}
10.e4 {1} g5 {1}
11.Bg3 {1*} Nxe4 {1}
12.Nxe4 {1} Bxe4 {1*}
13.h4 d5
14.hxg5 {3} Qxg5 {1*}
15.Rh5 {1} Qg6 {2}
16.Bf4 {2} Re8
17.Rxh6 {1*} Qg7 {1*}
18.Qa4 {1} Rc8 {1}
19.cxd5 {1} exd5 {1}
20.Rh5 f6 {1}
21.Rh6 Nd7
22.f3 {1*} Bf5 {1}
23.g4 {1*} Be6 {2}
24.Ba6 {1} Re8 {1}
25.O-O-O {2} cxd4 {2}
26.Qxd4 {?} Nc5 {1*}
27.Kb2 {1} Nxa6 {1*}
28.Rdh1 {1*} Rf8 {1*}
29.g5 {1} Nc5 {1*}
30.Bd2 {2} Rac8 {2?}
31.gxf6 {1*} Rxf6 {1*}
32.Rg1 {2?} Rf7 {2?}
33.Qh4 {1} Na4+ {1}
34.Kc2 {1*} Bf5+ {1*}
35.Kb3 {1*} Nc5+ {1*}
36.Ka2 {1} 1-0

TRACKHEAD21/CM10 match: All: 20/31 = 64.5%. Unforced: 11/22 = 50.0%.
cludi/CM10 match: All: 20/30 = 66.7%. Unforced: 10/20 = 50.0%

Clearly, with only a 50% match up and a couple of "blunders" apiece, this game would not be good evidence of cheating... but of course, one cannot discount that scores may differ against another engine. Which leads to another question: to what degree do engines match up?

Originally posted by Gatecrasher
Glad you've stood up for yourself at last.

I've analysed the deciding game in the Grand Split One Seven III.

I've done it differently to the previous ones. Now I show whether the move was CM's 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice (for info).

I also look at the idea of "forced moves", where CM's 1st choice was a half point or greater than the 2nd move ...[text shortened]... r against another engine. Which leads to another question: to what degree do engines match up?

hey just because a move doesn't agree with the engine doesn't make it a blunder :-) It was our superior brains finding the real best move lol. Thanks for posting that though. Would have stood up for myself sooner but the people whose thoughts I care about on this site know I don't use an engine and for all I cared anyone else could have kissed my booty. I did find it amusing back before that a player would take the time to make up their own analysis though. Plus some people don't know how to think for themselves and will listen to anything someone tells them online. And a big wooohoooo for that turnament that game was from, my second tournament win plus have my third tournament win in the Grand Split One Seven II whenever randydeluxe decides to resign his game as white as it's pretty much lost for him. With the win and things even in the other game I'll hve my 3rd win Yaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
hey just because a move doesn't agree with the engine doesn't make it a blunder :-) It was our superior brains finding the real best move lol. Thanks for posting that though. Would have stood up for myself sooner but the people whose thoughts I care about on this site know I don't use an engine and for all I cared anyone else could have kissed my boot ...[text shortened]... for him. With the win and things even in the other game I'll hve my 3rd win Yaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!

Congratulations on a deserved tournament win!

Originally posted by cludi
Some of you may wonder why I haven't posted in this thread yet, since much of the discussion is about Geoffkus being a cheater or not.
The reason for me being passive this long is, that I don't like this kind of public "guillotine" (probably misspelled🙄)

But I do think I'll make a few statements to the Geoffkus "case".

1. I've been PM'ed by a ...[text shortened]... in general. Hopefully the game moderators will be in place very soon. We need them to clean up!

Russ asked us to not post any more threads about JW. I have to respect his wishes... however, I feel that it is necessary to make a comment:
JW has been kicked out of the clan leagues and also out of The Fun Clan. Please do not make a reply to this message because Russ wants the posts about JW to stop. Both the clan leader of The Fun Clan and myself (as the team captain for the leagues) felt it necessary to give this information out.

arrakis

Originally posted by arrakis

JW has been kicked out of the clan leagues and also out of The Fun Clan. Please do not make a reply to this message because Russ wants the posts about JW to stop. Both the clan leader of The Fun Clan and myself (as the team captain for the leagues) felt it necessary to give this information out.

arrakis

So you should post this in the clan forum,not in one of the less frequented forums on Rhp......................

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
In every game I play I try to pick the best move, yet all the games I play are different. Surely I think the same way in each game and play with the same style/rating. However chess is so complex that none of my games ever match up. If I was to take a game I played a week ago (providing I had forgot the moves played) and I played it again now, m ...[text shortened]... I play a week ago. The engine moves stay the same game after game which is the difference :-)

generally I'll respond the same way to same moves from different games. Easier with games going on at the same time though I try not to do that as wouldnt want someone to try copying the other guys moves or knowing what move I intend to make next. I do sometimes go back to my older games to see what I did in a certain position and repeat the same move if it worked out for me in the previous game. As many games as I play I usually dont have to go back very far or I can just rmemeber the move I made.

Originally posted by Ravello
So you should post this in the clan forum,not in one of the less frequented forums on Rhp......................

I personally don't think that you are the advisor for RHP. In other words, don't waste my time (and others) with your meaningless messages.