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RJHinds, go ahead and participate if you now wish.
I thought you were going to start a parallel thread.
But I don't have time for perpetual argumentation if you disagree. I don't mind if you point out something that you see differently. But I won't endlessly defend my comments.
Go ahead if you wish.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieyes so it then becomes apparent that the harlot is a global entity and not restricted to a particular culture, people, language or religion. What about this phrase?
yes so it then becomes apparent that the harlot is a global entity and not restricted to a particular culture, people, language or religion. What about this phrase?
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication. Rev 17:2
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That is right. Catholic means public. The Prostitute is a world wide "public" religious organization with influence over many cultures.
Her daughters, the denominations and most of the free groups, are to one degree or another degree somewhat like her. It is hard for them to be completely free from her characteristics. But it is not impossible.
" ... with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication ..." (2a)
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Fornication is distinct here from adultery. Adultery is the sin of unfaithfulness of a spouse. Fornication is the sin of a harlot or prostitute. It is more serious than adultery.
The symbolism means the Roman Catholic Church has sinful relationships with the earth's kings which result in her profit. This is being compared to to the harlot committing sin for gain. This fornication is a spiritual one. And the kings of the earth commit it with her directly.
" .. and those who dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (2b)
The wine here signifies the heretical doctrines. Mixed in with the truth are also heretical doctrines so that in taking in the truth heresies are also taken in. The heretical doctrines come out of here spiritual fornication with political powers.
The inhabitants of the world, both believers in Christ and unbelievers, are put into a stupor of drunkeness and spiritual befuddlement because of the RCC's spiritual fornication and heretical doctrines.
Originally posted by sonshipThe symbolism means the Roman Catholic Church has sinful relationships with the earth's kings which result in her profit - jaywill
Fornication is distinct here from adultery. Adultery is the sin of unfaithfulness of a spouse. Fornication is the sin of a harlot or prostitute. It is more serious than adultery.
The symbolism means the Roman Catholic Church has sinful relationships with the earth's kings which result in her profit. This is being compared to to the harlot committing sin ...[text shortened]... s and spiritual befuddlement because of the RCC's spiritual fornication and heretical doctrines.
This is clearly erroneous. If we are talking about a global entity that is religious in nature then it cannot refer to a specific denomination of Christianity but must refer to a conglomerate of religions.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThere are many world religions. But they do not all claim a spousal relationship with Jesus Christ. The Buddhist do not say they are the Wife of Christ. Islam does not claim it is the Wife of Christ. And many religions also may teach something, but do not claim to be that Wife of Christ, His church.
The symbolism means the Roman Catholic Church has sinful relationships with the earth's kings which result in her profit - jaywill
This is clearly erroneous. If we are talking about a global entity that is religious in nature then it cannot refer to a specific denomination of Christianity but must refer to a conglomerate of religions.
Rest your reading eyes for a moment, and I write some more.
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The Harlot assimilates all kinds of teachings from the religions of the world which have nothing to do with the Gospel. Even Buddha can be found as a "saint" - "St. Josaphat" whose story is really that of the Buddha. So the Roman Catholic Church subsumes pagan religion into her doctrines, ie. Easter, Christimas, Holloween, Mary worship (which was adoration of the goddess Venus).
These things are mixed in as leaven in the fine flour of the apostles' teaching.
The Harlot is set in contrast to the Bride and Wife of Christ. So the Harlot is an entity claiming a spousal relationship with Jesus yet Jesus does not claim a spousal relationship with her. Prostitute or Harlot suggests an illegitimate claim of a marriage relationship. God does not recognize the spousal relationship that she claims, though His people have been captured away into her organization.
Rest your eyes and mind a bit, and perhaps I will comment again on your point.
Originally posted by sonshipNo you have simply made this up or have read it from people who have made it up. The only relationship that the Harlot has so far engaged in is with the Kings of the earth in which she engages in an illicit and immoral relationship. Indeed it should be a rather relatively easy thing to look at what religions commit spiritual fornication with the political entities of this system and you will see that it includes all kinds of denominations, not only Catholic or Islamic but also Protestant as well. The defining criteria is that she commits fornication with the political rulers of the system. You should not go beyond what can be extricated from scripture.
The [b]Harlot assimilates all kinds of teachings from the religions of the world which have nothing to do with the Gospel. Even Buddha can be found as a "saint" - "St. Josaphat" whose story is really that of the Buddha. So the Roman Catholic Church subsumes pagan religion into her doctrines, ie. Easter, Christimas, Holloween, Mary worship (which was ador ...[text shortened]... ganization.
Rest your eyes and mind a bit, and perhaps I will comment again on your point.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou're welcomed to have another viewpoint.
But you are definitely not paying attention to all the details of the vision.
I wrote that both the gold of the Harlot and the gold of the New Jerusalem is positive - pointing to the divine nature of God.
I wrote that both the pearl of the Harlot and the pearl of the New Jerusalem speak of the poured out life of Christ.
I wrote that both the precious stones of the Harlot and the precious stones of the wall of the New Jerusalem point to transforming work of the Holy Spirit upon believers.
What the New Jerusalem has solidly built into her the Harlot has as a lightly gilded matter as seductive advertising - a superficial facade.
"And the woman was ... GILDED with gold and precious stones and pearls ..." (v.4a)
She has just enough of things related TO the church to be able to advertise herself as Christ's Bride. Not only the fornication with the earth's kings is mentioned. The appearance and facade of matters related to the New Jerusalem as Christ's Wife, are mentioned.
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Indeed it should be an rather relatively easy thing to look at what religions commit spiritual fornication with the political entities of this system and you will see that it includes all kinds of denomination, not only Catholic or Islamic but also Protestant as well.
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This paragraph proves that you have not been paying attention to what I wrote. This is what lazy reading has done for you.
Go back and see what I said about "the MOTHER ... of harlots" as it relates to the Protestant denominations.
And then come back and admit that you overlooked that detail and eagerly made an unnecessary counterpoint.
Originally posted by sonshipI am interested in what the Bible says and what can be deduced from scripture. Your Catholic church theory is erroneous. I have told you why its erroneous. It is enough for me. You can either accept the fact or reject it.
[b] Indeed it should be an rather relatively easy thing to look at what religions commit spiritual fornication with the political entities of this system and you will see that it includes all kinds of denomination, not only Catholic or Islamic but also Protestant as well.
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This paragraph ...[text shortened]... ome back and admit that you overlooked that detail and eagerly made an unnecessary counterpoint.[/b]
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Let's step back and get a bird's eye view of what is happening in Revelation, as briefly as I can make it.
Some of you will get this and some won't.
The warfare between God and Satan is over the earth. God's plan is to have a dwelling place within man on the earth. This dwelling place or builded temple is also called Christ's Bride and Wife.
The warfare is not about keeping men from going to heaven. It is a war over God coming down to earth to have a dwelling in man on the earth.
In the revelation of Christ as the Son of God, Jesus said He would build His church of which the gates of Hades would not be able to destroy her.
"And Jesus answered and said ..."
That is He answered Peter's confession that Christ is the Son of the living God ( Matt. 16:16)
" ... Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens.
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:17b,18)
The war is not over individual spirituality.
The war is over Christ building a Body of human beings saturated with His own life and nature, built up together. The gates of death will try to the utmost to destroy the church. But the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church which Christ builds.
What we see in Revelation 17,18 are some of the tactics used by God's enemy to frustrate God's forming His building on the earth and the Wife of Christ. He attacks from without the church. He also attacks from within the church. He creates mixture, counterfeit, confusion. All of this is for the war over the earth.
God seeks to dispense Himself into man for the building of a Body for Christ, a Wife for Christ, a building of God and man to bring in a kingdom on the earth.
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Since both the Harlot (and by inference her daughters) AND the New Jerusalem both contain the positive things of God's salvation -
ie. gold, precious stones, and pearls, what has to be grasped is that God's people must be delivered from one realm into another.
It is not a simple matter of point a finger and saying "Over there. That is the Harlot." Rather it is examining every form of Christian congregation to seek to purge out the corrupting leaven.
The church in Corinth was a genuine local church. Paul did not establish a Catholic congregation in Corinth, or an Anglican one, or a Baptist one, or any kind of denomination.
Yet this genuine local church was not a utopia. He exhorted them to purge out the corrupting leaven to be a pure lump of Christ.
" Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened ... " (1 Cor. 5:6,7a)
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This exhortation towards a genuine city wide church established by the apostle shows that leaving one congregation and attending another does not mean that corruption will not occur. We can leave Babylon. Babylon will not easily leave us.
There are seven genuine local churches mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3. In each one Christ calls for some to overcome something contrary to God's will. To each of the seven local churches there is a promise of reward to those who hear what the Spirit is saying and overcome some adverse matter.
The original Overcomer lives within the believers. It is by Him that we must live and be victors.
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"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled with great marvel when I saw her."
Why did John have this reaction, marveling with great marvel ?
Something astonishes him about the vision.
The angel asks him the same question. Why do you marvel? Why are you so astounded with shock ?
"And the angel said to me, Why did you marvel. I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast who bears her, who has the seven heads and the ten horns." (17:7)
Other English versions say:
" Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? "
" Why are you so amazed?" the angel asked. "
" And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder?"
" Why are you surprised?" The angel asked me."
" But the angel said to me, "Why are you astounded? "
To me the tone is "What did you expect? "
John, the last of the original 12 apostles is seeing a vision which encompasses the whole world history after his own departure. He is looking into a sign which speaks of ages of church history after his death.
I think what amazed him is that the degradation and corruption of Christianity could take such a apostate slide into confusion. He marveled. He could hardly believe what he saw.
My opinion is that John is like the New Testament Daniel. He was specifically fasting and praying like Daniel seeking for God to give him understanding of how to help the flock which he was soon to leave. He was the last surviving of the apostles.
Like Daniel in the Old Testament God did not hold back tremendous revelation of things to come. And John saw how history would conclude with a Harlot, a Prostitute and Mother of many prostitutes representing the degradation of the pure Gospel that the 12 apostles had delivered to the world. He also got a glimpse at the real view of the Roman Empire.
No one told me of this viewpoint. It is my musings of the meaning of that passage of the angel asking John WHY he was so astonished.
Originally posted by sonship[b] "And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled with great marvel when I saw her."
Why did John have this reaction, marveling with great marvel ?
Something astonishes him about the vision.
The angel asks him the same question. Why do you marvel? Why are you ...[text shortened]... is my musings of the meaning of that passage of the angel asking John WHY he was so astonished.[/b]Yes, "What did you expect?", indeed.