2019 clan season off to great start

@moonbus said
The last time this was proposed, it was tied to other changes which, together, might have fundamentally altered the nature of clan play. That was too much for most of the captains to accept. It might be acceptable now, as a solo adjustment.

I really hope so, yes I understand how it went last time. Perhaps with just the one thing being voted on it will go differently. What I wonder is how difficult it would be to seperate the different Ratings? I suppose if it is possible the club, tournaments and private games could all be rated as one then the Clan Rating have one of its own. I just don't know what work would have to go into making the changes. Will Russ do another Vote, I think the Clan Leaders would mostly be in agreement this time, exception being the ones who are using the present way to their advantage.

-VR

So, even if a separate clan-games rating does address the case where someone throws tournament games to lower their rating for new clan challenges, what about the scenario where a clan throws the remaining games in a challenge that their side has already won (thereby lowering the ratings of some of their players for upcoming challenges)?

Since that scenario would only involve clan games, a separate clan-games rating would not address that.

@caesar-salad removed their quoted post

A player’s average rating over the last year, or five years, could also be used as an initial clan rating. The starting point matters less than separating the clan rating from other RHP games. This would eliminate the rating manipulation at present whereby a clan rating can be artificially deflated by dumping non-clan games.

@caesar-salad said
So, even if a separate clan-games rating does address the case where someone throws tournament games to lower their rating for new clan challenges, what about the scenario where a clan throws the remaining games in a challenge that their side has already won (thereby lowering the ratings of some of their players for upcoming challenges)?

Since that scenario would only involve clan games, a separate clan-games rating would not address that.

Correct, that is a separate issue.

@caesar-salad said
So, even if a separate clan-games rating does address the case where someone throws tournament games to lower their rating for new clan challenges, what about the scenario where a clan throws the remaining games in a challenge that their side has already won (thereby lowering the ratings of some of their players for upcoming challenges)?

Since that scenario would only involve clan games, a separate clan-games rating would not address that.

You make a very good point. That is a seperate issue but I think by seperating the Clan rating from all the other ratings it would certainly put a big curb on what is now taking place in the Clan Challenges.

I believe limiting Clans to How many Challenges they can have with another clan pressured people to close challenges as soon as possible so their Clan Leader can make new challenges.

I think we should take one step at a time, but keep your point in mind as a valid one. I don't know that the point system will ever be perfect, or that everyone will be happy about it. I think for now we should just concentrate on trying to get the Clan Challenge rating seperated from the other ratings.

-VR

@caesar-salad said
So, even if a separate clan-games rating does address the case where someone throws tournament games to lower their rating for new clan challenges, what about the scenario where a clan throws the remaining games in a challenge that their side has already won (thereby lowering the ratings of some of their players for upcoming challenges)?

Since that scenario would only involve clan games, a separate clan-games rating would not address that.

It doesn't work the same way as a tournament game being tossed.
I'll explain and provide an exception to the rule.

Scenario:
An player rated at, say, 1600 resigns a game to another player with rating 1600.
As per the formula provided in the FAQ's, his rating drops 16 points to 1584.
Now he gets an easier opponent who is rated at 1584.
And wins that game. His rating returns back to 1600.
If he loses too many clan games, he starts to hurt his clan.
Therefore, it is more difficult to manipulate one's rating using clan games only.
But tossing tournament games to offset won clan games works perfectly for someone who wants to cheat.

This is what Mctayto is doing. Blatantly !!

There is an exception here.
A player belongs to more than one clan.
That person could use clan games from one clan to offset clan games for another clan.
But any good clan leader of the first clan would turf such an individual for intentionally hurting his clan.
If that leader does nothing. Then he/she is either:
Ignorant of what is going on or
In collusion with the leader of the other clan.
It is a slightly different twist to what went on in 2016.
But it would be collusion.
A clan rating wouldn't solve everything.
But it would be an improvement.
I stress that the objective in clan play is to win the challenges.
And if a clan challenge is decided, a clan should be able to cash in.
Especially with the limitations restricting concurrent challenge between any 2 clans, set at maximum 3 challenges in progress at any time.

I am seeing shenanigans where players in opposing clans are slowing games down.
If our clan has won a challenge, I'd like to be able to cash the points.
I've seen one of my player's opponents facing a mate in one move sitting on that game for 10 days before resigning.
This is nonsense !! And unsportsmanlike !!
We do NOT resign games in won (or lost) challenges to manipulate our ratings.
We do it to claim the challenge points.

The fact that @mctayto is the one tossing those accusations at our clan is a laughable joke !
(You can view his profile through his link above)

@very-rusty said
What happened is like I said Shortcircuit asked the group who would like to step forward. You don't know what goes in in our Clan Suzie Q. He may also have approached mghrn55 about it. We don't as a rule discuss what goes on in our clan.

There is also one other person in our group very qualified for the job but is too busy to take it on at the moment. We also have a few ...[text shortened]... ve the time.

You do understand you are not suppose to use real names in the public forums?

-VR

You need to stop telling me what I can and can't do. I am an adult, and you need to stop treating me like a child, or God forbid, your child.

So you can stop taking it upon yourself to correct me. In fact, you can stop talking to me (or about me) altogether. We'll both be happier.

@caesar-salad said
So, even if a separate clan-games rating does address the case where someone throws tournament games to lower their rating for new clan challenges, what about the scenario where a clan throws the remaining games in a challenge that their side has already won (thereby lowering the ratings of some of their players for upcoming challenges)?

Since that scenario would only involve clan games, a separate clan-games rating would not address that.

One controversy at a time, please.

I think the separation of clan ratings is most pressing, and to confuse the issue with these side issues is counterproductive. We can deal with this issue after that. Both issues deserve our concentration and to split the attention of those who would be voting on these things doesn't help anybody.

@mghrn55 said
It doesn't work the same way as a tournament game being tossed.
I'll explain and provide an exception to the rule.

Scenario:
An player rated at, say, 1600 resigns a game to another player with rating 1600.
As per the formula provided in the FAQ's, his rating drops 16 points to 1584.
Now he gets an easier opponent who is rated at 1584.
And wins that game. His rating re ...[text shortened]... ose accusations at our clan is a laughable joke !
(You can view his profile through his link above)

I understand your position, believe me. I, too, get frustrated by players that delay the inevitable. But let me say this about the issue of resigning games once a clan has enough points to win a challenge. This was also the original, ostensible reason the colluders gave for their undermining the clan system. I have had questions about this in the past as well. I think this is something that does need to be addressed. I do think the separation of clan rating is more important right now, but I also think we need to come back to this issue after that. It's a valid concern.

@suzianne said
I understand your position, believe me. I, too, get frustrated by players that delay the inevitable. But let me say this about the issue of resigning games once a clan has enough points to win a challenge. This was also the original, ostensible reason the colluders gave for their undermining the clan system. I have had questions about this in the past as well. I think t ...[text shortened]... nt right now, but I also think we need to come back to this issue after that. It's a valid concern.

That is fair enough.
Come to think of it, I may have also come up with an idea to deal with that back in 2016.
Something like moving up the awarding the clan points.
From clan challenge games completed to clan challenge decided.
Scoring the challenge points as soon as the challenge is decided eliminates the need to close out the games to get the points.
That was before the maximum 3 on going challenges between 2 clans.
Now this has become another reason to close out challenges.
So the accusations of sandbagging will not go away.
But that can be solved by a simple flag.
Any clan that ends after a challenge has been decided can be flagged as an unrated game.
If a player decides he/she no longer wishes to continue a game after a challenge has been decided, then they can do so without changing their rating.
Thus eliminating the accusations of rating manipulation.
My wheels are turning. 😉

@mghrn55 said
That is fair enough.
Come to think of it, I may have also come up with an idea to deal with that back in 2016.
Something like moving up the awarding the clan points.
From clan challenge games completed to clan challenge decided.
Scoring the challenge points as soon as the challenge is decided eliminates the need to close out the games to get the points.
That was before ...[text shortened]... g their rating.
Thus eliminating the accusations of rating manipulation.
My wheels are turning. 😉

I would be comfortable with that. If we can end challenges as soon as they are won, without changing the ratings on games still in progress, this would surely stop the crying about "sandbagging" by clans that play a ton of games. I'm good with that.

AND challenges would be counted sooner. Win-win.