On games resigned early if a challenge has been decided

@caesar-salad said
Feign astonishment? First you wonder if I'm someone else, then you come back with this adversarial attitude when I say I'm not. How many people have you been accused of being lately?

I did answer honestly, but why should I think you believe me, and why should I put any effort into trying to convince you or anyone else?

There is no offence in wondering if you are a previous poster and I’m not being adversarial in the slightest, you are just making that up. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.

@divegeester said
There is no offence in wondering if you are a previous poster and I’m not being adversarial in the slightest, you are just making that up. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.

Given the difference in TV histories between our nations, my reference might have missed the mark. We used to have a show called "What's My Line?" and I was thinking of something like "Guess My Identity." Also, I wasn't thinking of just your post. You would be the second or third panelist to ask who I really am.

I do feel a little under siege lately for things that other people have done. Other people, who I am not.

I agree there is no need to feign astonishment at your post, and I don't believe I have.

@caesar-salad said
Feign astonishment? First you wonder if I'm someone else, then you come back with this adversarial attitude when I say I'm not. How many people have you been accused of being lately?

I did answer honestly, but why should I think you believe me, and why should I put any effort into trying to convince you or anyone else?

CS,

Divegeester has been a regular poster in these forums for many years. I haven't seen a lot of you posting. Did I just miss it because it wasn't a touchy topic? We do know who Divegeester is, we don't really know who you are. Perhaps we can get to know you.

-VR

@caesar-salad said
Given the difference in TV histories between our nations, my reference might have missed the mark. We used to have a show called "What's My Line?" and I was thinking of something like "Guess My Identity." Also, I wasn't thinking of just your post. You would be the second or third panelist to ask who I really am.

I do feel a little under siege lately for things that ...[text shortened]... am not.

I agree there is no need to feign astonishment at your post, and I don't believe I have.

If it helps sir, I'm perfectly content this is your only account here.

@very-rusty said
CS,

Divegeester has been a regular poster in these forums for many years. I haven't seen a lot of you posting. Did I just miss it because it wasn't a touchy topic? We do know who Divegeester is, we don't really know who you are. Perhaps we can get to know you.

-VR

Hmm, well this morning I cleared a path to the back of my yard so a guy from a tree service could assess a couple of oaks that are threatening my house. That was the first yard work other than mowing that I had done in years.

I drink tea much more often than coffee -- usually Tapal Danedar black tea poured over ice and with some sugar. (Currently also with a little bit of cloves because I have a toothache.)

My daily post-office report says I have a mystery package on the way from China -- no idea what that could be!

@caesar-salad said
I do feel a little under siege lately for things that other people have done. Other people, who I am not.

I would politely suggest that if you can’t stand the heat it is best if you stay out of the kitchen.

@moonbus said
@mghrn55

My apologies for comparing you to McTayto. I retract the statement.

"We didn't make this bed." Not you personally, that is true; you inherited leadership of a clan with a methodology already in place and long-established. Nonetheless, Metallica contributed substantially to the current situation in which the clan system has become a Game of Throwns.

I repeat, ...[text shortened]... er with intent or as a 'side-effect' of a clan strategy), they should be outted and called to order.

I took a few days to respond and read your post fully.
I will try to keep my response brief, albeit probably unsuccessfully.

First of all, I appreciate and accept your apology.

Moving on ......

- I am amazed and amused at how this issue gained traction. To the point where it has become a distraction from the more pressing issues.
- I have a pretty good idea of the source of this narrative. Profile for @mctayto will shed a light on this.
- I have put forth my position on resigning games in decided challenges in a concise and logical manner. That being that resigning clan games with the intent of manipulation of one's rating is a zero sum process. That is that a rating drop in one game is usually followed by the same rating rise in the next game on average.
- The original accusation of rating manipulation is based on the assumption that this occurs with only one clan. This process has been attached to one clan only in this discussion.
- since Metallica is at the core of the subject here, I would say this. If I (or my predessor) as clan leader had really wanted to manipulate our player ratings, wouldn't I just have them enter tournaments ?? Really !!
- To your argument that this is a concerted method over years, that is just silly. Clan games amount to about 25% of my game history. Rest are tournaments. How would I carefully manage my rating through clan games when 3/4 of my games are tournament games. That argument just doesn't hold water.
- I could turn this whole rating scheme in a circular argument that goes nowhere in a heartbeat. I could say that resigning a game I am losing or being checkmated is a form of rating manipulation. I have monitored my challenges where one of my players was going to checkmate his opponent next move. That opponent did not resign and did not move for 10 days before my player won the game. That could be construed as a form of rating manipulation. My player's rating was misrepresented for 10 days because his opponent slowed down the game. I won't get into why he did that, though some may speculate.
- your assertion that player's current ratings are inaccurate is a no brainer !! Of course they are inaccurate !! That's why I have maintained that clan play involves clan leader skills as well as chess playing skills.
- your statement that research wouldn't be necessary misses the mark completely. That is exactly what clan play is about !!
If you think clan leaders should do nothing more than pull their players' names out of a hat every time they enter a challenge, you have missed the whole intent of the clan feature. As a comment, I put together some challenges this morning. I have seen opposing clan rosters with players currently rated 400 points below their 5 year high. That involves research !! Plain and simple !!
- And finally, I will offer a comment on the source of this accusation, which started several years ago. For someone to come up with something like this takes someone with a lot of obsession with one target and with too much time on their hands. This is not a red flag issue like the one that popped up in 2016. Or the one that has popped up this year.
This is at best a sideshow issue that is intended to distract from a more relevant issue before the clan community. At worst it is a non-issue borne out of an imagination of a couple of malcontents with too much time on their hands.

If we want to solve the issue of the day, let's not get sidetracked by someone's pet issue.
In my opinion, this thread has gotten far more attention than it deserves.
If we want site administration to do something about the real rating manipulation going on this year, we should be trying to provide focus on the issue instead of creating distractions.
If we don't, site administration will just walk away from any possible solution.

I just noted a comment at the bottom of Metallica's page that the clan's rating
excludes league games. If Russ can do that, how much more difficult would it be to exclude tournament games from the clan rating system.
Hopefully Russ can move us closer to a system where clan rating is based primarily if not solely on clan games.

@my2sons said
I just noted a comment at the bottom of Metallica's page that the clan's rating
excludes league games. If Russ can do that, how much more difficult would it be to exclude tournament games from the clan rating system.
Hopefully Russ can move us closer to a system where clan rating is based primarily if not solely on clan games.

I’m not sure what that comment means.
It may be a reference to the average rating of the clan.
It may be that clan league games may be unrated games.
Perhaps site administration can clarify.

@mghrn55 said
I took a few days to respond and read your post fully.
I will try to keep my response brief, albeit probably unsuccessfully.

First of all, I appreciate and accept your apology.

Moving on ......

- I am amazed and amused at how this issue gained traction. To the point where it has become a distraction from the more pressing issues.
- I have a pretty good idea of the ...[text shortened]... ting distractions.
If we don't, site administration will just walk away from any possible solution.

Thank you for your long and thoughtful post. I agree that this issue has gotten over-played and over-heated, and is but one of several items which should be addressed and optimized by site admin. You've stated your case; I've stated mine, and I do not wish to add any more at this time.

What I would like to see next is a determination regarding resigning games in playable positions. "Playable position" means a game which might yet be won or drawn, considering the playing skills of the players involved. A determination unilaterally by site admin, or by vote of the captains, would go a long way towards resolving one issue which has been smouldering for several years now.

Specifically, I would like to see one of the following resolutions adopted; either:

a. Resigning playable games is acceptable in both tournaments and clan challenges;
b. resigning playable games is poor sportsmanship and unacceptable in both tournaments and clan challenges;
c. resigning playable games is poor sportsmanship and unacceptable in tournaments, but acceptable in clan challenges;
or
d. resigning playable games is poor sportsmanship and unacceptable in clan challenges, but acceptable in tournaments.

Without prejudice to any other outstanding issues (such as de-coupling clan ratings from all other RHP ratings).

Any further thoughts on this?

@moonbus said
Thank you for your long and thoughtful post. I agree that this issue has gotten over-played and over-heated, and is but one of several items which should be addressed and optimized by site admin. You've stated your case; I've stated mine, and I do not wish to add any more at this time.

What I would like to see next is a determination regarding resigning games in playable ...[text shortened]... sues (such as de-coupling clan ratings from all other RHP ratings).

Any further thoughts on this?

First of all, it's nice to know that we can put forth our views in a respectful manner.
Even if we sometimes disagree along the way.
And in this case, we do disagree.
Since you solicited a further thought, I will offer a final one.

I still maintain that this issue was borne out of the imagination of some individuals looking for any issues they can attach to any one clan.
I do acknowledge that a couple of examples landed in your lap.
But I still maintain that this issue is much ado about nothing, relatively speaking.

Early on, you put forth a hypothetical scenario with players labelled A1-A6 and laid out a scheme where a clan can clean up.
What makes the scenario hypothetical and out of touch with reality is that these players can be simultaneously be playing and dumping tournament games throughout this entire process.
Actually we are seeing this happen this year from the clan currently at the top of the table.

If one really wants to stretch their imagination attaching their issue to a target clan, I could be accused of rating manipulation for resigning a lost game today instead of playing to a checkmate 3 weeks from today.
After all I am lowering my rating 3 weeks in advance of an inevitable checkmate.

My point being, how far does this go ?
Where do we draw the line ?
And in the end, a 15 point reduction in rating is negligible relatively speaking.
If I take a player from my clan with a reduced rating of 15-20 points and match that player to an opponent whose current rating is 200, 300 or even 400 points below their highest rating, the argument does seem silly, doesn't it ?

Since Metallica has been the target of most of the accusations, I will speak from our perspective.
We try to cash in our won challenges as quickly as possible to keep the challenges moving.
Rating manipulation is the last thing on our mind.

I think if we get a separate rating for clan games, I think this accusation will melt away.

Interesting that the OP doesn't mention or even hint at Metallica, but Metallica seems to think this thread is about them.

They certainly made sure it was.

There's a song by Carly Simon ...

@caesar-salad said
Interesting that the OP doesn't mention or even hint at Metallica, but Metallica seems to think this thread is about them.

They certainly made sure it was.

There's a song by Carly Simon ...

@mctayto
Since you're relatively new here.

@mghrn55 said
@mctayto
Since you're relatively new here.

Thank you for "relatively new" -- that's a nice change.

@caesar-salad said
Thank you for "relatively new" -- that's a nice change.

Hardly posted much in this clan forum before wouldn't be a change, that would be quite accurate!!! 😉

-VR