Clans Forum

Clans Forum

  1. Subscribermoonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    Joined
    31 May '12
    Moves
    2490
    17 Apr '19 12:073 edits
    @mghrn55

    My apologies for comparing you to McTayto. I retract the statement.

    "We didn't make this bed." Not you personally, that is true; you inherited leadership of a clan with a methodology already in place and long-established. Nonetheless, Metallica contributed substantially to the current situation in which the clan system has become a Game of Throwns.

    I repeat, the motive or rationale for resigning games which might yet have been won or drawn is irrelevant, whether to deflate ratings or for some other purpose. The effect is the same, and it affects the entire clan system, not just your clan's players' ratings. When Metallica players throw games which might yet have been drawn or won, it not only artificially deflates Metallica players' ratings, it also artificially inflates those of Metallica's opponents.

    The net change for one player for two games is negligible, as you rightly point out. But it's not about only two games for one player; it's about a concerted method implemented over years, as in the hypothetical scenario I sketched out.

    With the result that clan captains can no longer assume that any Metallica player's current rating is accurate, nor even the current ratings of any players who recently played Metallica. Thus, extensive research into the games of prospective opponents (Metallica or otherwise) to see whether any were thrown, as well as research into prospective opponents' (Metallica or otherwise) past ratings (five-year highs and averages), is required.

    Such extensive research (specifically into thrown games) wouldn't be necessary, if the ratings were accurate. They would be accurate if all games were played to "completion" in the non-trivial sense that a game ends in checkmate, or is drawn, or times out, or is resigned when the opponent's position is judged to be so overwhelming that checkmate is certain and not otherwise.

    I do not mean to persecute you personally, nor defame your clan's memorable record of wins. Metallica takes the flak because you are a highly visible clan and your method has been outted. My complaint is not with you personally.

    The long and short of it is that Metallica's practice of throwing games has knock-on effects for the entire clan system. It's not just something clever you guys do; it affects all of us. Don't get me wrong; I do not begrudge your success, and I have no doubt that you would continue to dominate if you dropped the practice of throwing games. My point is that we do not have a level playing field here, and Metallica is part of the reason why. Not the only reason, I hasten to add. If other clans are manipulating the system (whether with intent or as a 'side-effect' of a clan strategy), they should be outted and called to order.
  2. Subscribermoonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    Joined
    31 May '12
    Moves
    2490
    17 Apr '19 12:39
    @very-rusty said
    You play with the misfits who don't play a lot of games. For Clans to be limited to playing only 3 challenges with one Clan actually benefits a Clan like yours. I do believe I have more skulls collected than the amount of games your Clan has played in total games. You yourself play very few games, so the least amount of challenges a Clan is allowed to play is right where w ...[text shortened]... ppy? Solutions are better than an argument that goes on for years with no results in the end.

    -VR
    I prefer quality over quantity. I get more pleasure out of losing one well-played game than winning masses of skittles games. That's why I asked to join The Misfits.

    I did not expect to take the crown away from the leaders, but we have racked up some impressive results against more than one page one clan in our time.

    Furthermore, it is one of the attractive features of the clan system, compared with teams, that there is no fixed schedule. I do have a private life, you know, and a fixed schedule of team games would not suit my lifestyle.
  3. SubscriberVery Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Joined
    04 Oct '06
    Moves
    430153
    17 Apr '19 15:021 edit
    @moonbus said
    I prefer quality over quantity. I get more pleasure out of losing one well-played game than winning masses of skittles games. That's why I asked to join The Misfits.

    I did not expect to take the crown away from the leaders, but we have racked up some impressive results against more than one page one clan in our time.

    Furthermore, it is one of the attractive features of ...[text shortened]... I do have a private life, you know, and a fixed schedule of team games would not suit my lifestyle.
    From what I've seen you seem to have lots of free time to give out long drawn out opinions on what you think of the Clan system. Perhaps some of that time could be spent on playing more games?

    Everyone on this site has a private life Moonbus your not the exception to that. Some of us happen to be retired, so therefore have more time than those of you who work or may even play the game at work.

    That is why I have made the suggestion of maybe having 2 sections for the Clan Challenges. One section would be for those who want to play a lot of games like our clan and all the others you see on the First page. The second section would be for those who want to play less (I'll even say more quality games) as you have put it. That way everyone is happy!!!

    -VR
  4. Subscribermoonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    Joined
    31 May '12
    Moves
    2490
    17 Apr '19 15:13
    @very-rusty said
    From what I've seen you seem to have lots of free time to give out long drawn out opinions on what you think of the Clan system. Perhaps some of that time could be spent on playing more games?

    Everyone on this site has a private life Moonbus your not the exception to that. Some of us happen to be retired, so therefore have more time than those of you who work or may eve ...[text shortened]... lay less (I'll even say more quality games) as you have put it. That way everyone is happy!!!

    -VR
    I think fast; not much time wasted.
  5. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
    Joined
    28 Jan '07
    Moves
    69261
    17 Apr '19 15:44
    @moonbus said
    @mghrn55

    My apologies for comparing you to McTayto. I retract the statement.

    "We didn't make this bed." Not you personally, that is true; you inherited leadership of a clan with a methodology already in place and long-established. Nonetheless, Metallica contributed substantially to the current situation in which the clan system has become a Game of Throwns.

    I repeat, ...[text shortened]... er with intent or as a 'side-effect' of a clan strategy), they should be outted and called to order.
    You have had a hard on against the clan mode of chess since you started pontificating from your pedestal. I endured your rhetoric longer than I ever should have. You can blame whoever you want for the problems "you perceive" with this system. You "believe" the clan system should mirror FIDE rules and procedures.
    But, what you fail to comprehend, it appears, is that clan chess is a bastardation of conventional chess. As such, you are not afforded the luxury of having your cake and eating it too. You have choices available to you, among them, not participating. There are plenty of avenues you could pursue on this site that do not involve clan chess. Every one of them has a problem with accurate ratings. They are bombarded with "assisted play" elements. So I don't understand why you choose to single out clan play for your crusade, but that is your choice.

    Like it or not, you cannot show me a single rule Metallica has violated, and neither can any of the other eternal whiners. I was an open book when I led the clan, and I withstood all of the accusations, the presumptions of wrong doing, and the flat out lies hurled in my direction. Mind you, no one, you included, could ever pin down exactly what rule we broke or what kind of voodoo I was cooking up. At least everything Metallica did under my leadership was above ground and within the rules. What McTayto does is not even in the same universe. He is nothing but a turd in a punch bowl anyway, just trying to make a name for himself. The other whiners can't make their cases either, so they keep bleating the same crap over and over. The RHP community has tried for many years to derail what Metallica did. They changed rules twice, they changed the scoring for position determination once, they limited the number of challenges clans can simultaneously have between clans. All of these changes were directed at stopping us, and they didn't work. Why? We adapted, we changed our strategy and we overcame. These changes have become our trophies. In every case, everyone had to play by the same rules, which is all we ever asked. Even though you change the rules or the parameters, in the end, you still have to beat us. That is what the truth is. They couldn't do it. Sorry you don't like it, but that doesn't change anything. You can't belittle our accomplishments because they weren't your cup of tea.

    Thanks for your opinion, but I will stay with mine.

    As far as the current leader of our clan, he is a good man, he is not me, and he will be successful in his role. I will take credit for being the architect of the original blueprint, but, like the rules, that blueprint is changing with each modification and will continue to do so. He carries the torch now.....but be careful that the torch doesn't burn the whole building down!!
  6. SubscriberVery Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Joined
    04 Oct '06
    Moves
    430153
    17 Apr '19 15:541 edit

    Removed by poster

  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
    in London
    Joined
    14 Mar '15
    Moves
    11660
    17 Apr '19 16:09

    Removed by poster

  8. Subscribercaesar salad
    Woodland Hermit
    Joined
    06 May '15
    Moves
    11808
    17 Apr '19 16:24

    Removed by poster

  9. Subscribercaesar salad
    Woodland Hermit
    Joined
    06 May '15
    Moves
    11808
    17 Apr '19 17:584 edits
    @mghrn55
    >> "There will be more links to Mctayto's tossed tournament games coming in the next few days."
    That's fine, but aren't you really just documenting someone else's adaptive strategy (and a rather successful one)?

    If Metallica isn't breaking any rules, then neither is Mctayto. And please let's just stick with current activity, not bundling in whatever he or Metallica did a few years ago. BTW, there is nothing under Help > Tournaments about playing games to completion, as there is under Help > Clans (although it's possible that clubs might specify that for their own tournaments).

    >> "It is time to reset the narrative back in the proper direction."
    [translation: one that favors Metallica -- just kidding, I hope ;-) ]

    >> "That being the need for a separate rating for clan games."
    Sounds good to me.
  10. Stargazing
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    89260
    17 Apr '19 18:301 edit
    @moonbus said
    No, there isn't. There is a clear distinction to be made between resigning a game which is clearly lost, and resigning a game, which is part of a challenge, which might yet be won or drawn, once a challenge is decided.
    Your definitions are irrelevant in the context of clan chess rules.

    I’ve been thinking long and hard about this topic and brought it up at least twice in my clan forum for discussion. I’ve also emailed Russ and asked if he has an opinion on this and he hasn’t replied so obviously he doesn’t have a strong one and therefore by default he doesn’t have an issue with it.

    After listening to the sensible voices in this forum, my fellow clan members and indeed Russ himself I can only come the conclusion that in terms of clan chess, resigning unfinished games after a challenge is won, is not against the rules.

    Every clan is in the same boat with the same rules and all can play the opportunities within those rules they way they see fit.

    I respectfully suggest that if you have any issue with it then you need to take it up with the site administration and desist in this metaphorical crying in the street.
  11. Subscribercaesar salad
    Woodland Hermit
    Joined
    06 May '15
    Moves
    11808
    17 Apr '19 18:49
    @divegeester
    Your reply to @moonbus would have been better without that personal dig in the last few words.
  12. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
    Joined
    28 Jan '07
    Moves
    69261
    17 Apr '19 19:18
    @caesar-salad said
    @divegeester
    Your reply to @moonbus would have been better without that personal dig in the last few words.
    Your reply @divegeester would have been better left unsaid.
    The man spoke his mind and stated his position clearly.

    The "personal dig" you refer to is a trivial compared to the ax handles in the back that have been hurled by others.
  13. Subscribermy2sons
    Retired
    Missouri
    Joined
    02 Aug '07
    Moves
    66690
    17 Apr '19 20:13
    @moonbus said
    @mghrn55

    My apologies for comparing you to McTayto. I retract the statement.

    "We didn't make this bed." Not you personally, that is true; you inherited leadership of a clan with a methodology already in place and long-established. Nonetheless, Metallica contributed substantially to the current situation in which the clan system has become a Game of Throwns.

    I repeat, ...[text shortened]... er with intent or as a 'side-effect' of a clan strategy), they should be outted and called to order.
    Since Moonbus singled me out as the poster child for resigning won clan games based upon 2 games I resigned against him in 2017, I stand on my 2019 record of resigning or drawing games only games where the position dictates it.
    In other words, resigning a game against a 1900 or 2000 rated player when you are a piece down is not throwing the game. It is based upon reality of the position. To play another 20 moves just to confirm the loss is plain stupid.
    Moonbus with his current rating should understand this as well as anyone.
  14. Subscribercaesar salad
    Woodland Hermit
    Joined
    06 May '15
    Moves
    11808
    17 Apr '19 20:151 edit
    @shortcircuit said
    The man spoke his mind and stated his position clearly.
    Yes he did, and then he somewhat undermined his well-written post with those last few words.
  15. Stargazing
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    89260
    17 Apr '19 21:11
    @caesar-salad said
    @divegeester
    Your reply to @moonbus would have been better without that personal dig in the last few words.
    Well I guess you had to say something, and that was it.
Back to Top