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Clans Forum

  1. 06 Jul '16 21:43
    As a new clan leader this year I have been reading the active discussion in this forum. The issue of interest to me is the idea of a player resigning a game for any reason other than the game is lost.

    There seems to be a thought that resigning a clan game after the clan match has been determined is at the discretion of the player. I disagree with that concept. I disagree so much in fact that I am willing to throw myself in the middle of this mess and take my beating.

    When someone resigns a game that is not lost, it skews their rating and it skews their opponents rating. The rating is a tool to help determine the probability that a player will win any given game. If players are manipulating their rating, it makes accurately predicting the outcome of a match impossible.

    Every week I get challenges where the players’ current rating are a good match. The win probability is close to even we have two games that will be enjoyable to the players. Then I click the vs button and see that the opposing player’s 90 day and Year high and average ratings are 200 points higher than my player.

    It is not just one or two clans that do this. This is an accepted strategy on this web site for winning clan matches. I have read here where some clan leaders are “smarter” than others. If smarter means able to pull a fast one on the newbie clan leader, I would say the maybe it is time to rethink winning.

    I thought winning meant this player beat that player in chess, or my clan beat your clan in chess. Does winning mean I outsmarted you, the matches were cleverly set-up one-sided and I fooled you into accepting the challenge?

    I don’t agree with what Robbie is doing. But it is not just Robbie. It has taken 4 clans and 50-75 players to put Robbie’s clan on top. Why is that? Why are so many players here so frustrated that they are willing to work together to try to get the clan challenge system changed?

    If you say jealousy that is bull. It is frustration. There is a petition thread – 23 thumbs up in the week the thread has been live. Today is the 6th and there are 70 pages of “Most Active Chess Player This Month” with 60 moves or more. So 10 moves a day. That is pretty active – every day you make 10 moves. 2100 active players and 23 of them signed the petition.

    1% of active players “thinks that anti metallica breaking bad and arrow clans should be banned and all points they gave to robbies easy riders be removed”

    It is not just a matter of we throw the bums out or we all stop subscribing. That is not going to happen. We need a real solution. If all clans actually represented their players with their true ratings and all matches were set up to actually have games where either players had a fair shot at winning, we would not need a revolt of 50-75 players.

    So that is my opinion. That is not me. That is my opinion. If you disagree or think it stinks so be it. Please criticize the opinion not me. I am just trying to make the clan system better. We all are trying to make the clan system better I think.

    I would be very interested in what the other clan leaders have to say about from now on only creating matches where either player and either clan has a fair shot at winning.
  2. Standard member Mctayto
    Highlander
    06 Jul '16 22:10
    Very astute post.

    Over the years a few different things (dozens of clan leaders came together in the Aim High times) have been tried to get the powers that be to put a stop to the folk that abuse the system.
    They have done a few tweaks here and there but essentially the system has always been open to manipulation.

    The main manipulation has been done by metallica who appear immune to everything as they come on in numbers to shout down anyone that opposes them.
  3. Subscriber roma45
    st johnstone
    06 Jul '16 22:57
    Originally posted by arbeider
    As a new clan leader this year I have been reading the active discussion in this forum. The issue of interest to me is the idea of a player resigning a game for any reason other than the game is lost.

    There seems to be a thought that resigning a clan game after the clan match has been determined is at the discretion of the player. I disagree with that c ...[text shortened]... rom now on only creating matches where either player and either clan has a fair shot at winning.
    some really interesting points you made
    1] active chess players are not mainly active posters or readers, look at debates or general forums, same group debating all the time.the vast majority of members come here to play chess nothing else
    2] it does not need 50 to 70 members to organise a scam, like what is going on, there will be a few multi account holders in that group
    3] three clans resigning to hand the easy riders wins, is appalling act of unsportsmanship, my opimion is that it's cheating, that's why i don't run a clan or buy a sub anymore
    4] good luck running your clan, if all leaders had your train of thought, it would be a great site
  4. 06 Jul '16 23:10
    Originally posted by arbeider
    As a new clan leader this year I have been reading the active discussion in this forum. The issue of interest to me is the idea of a player resigning a game for any reason other than the game is lost.

    There seems to be a thought that resigning a clan game after the clan match has been determined is at the discretion of the player. I disagree with that c ...[text shortened]... rom now on only creating matches where either player and either clan has a fair shot at winning.
    Players skewing their ratings by resigning games will not go away.
    Also called sandbagging.
    And it certainly does not reside solely in the clan feature.
    You should enter some tournaments and see some players ratings there.

    What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue.

    Several clans have conspired to set up clan challenges designed to award the points to one clan and tilt the clan championship in that clan's favor.

    It is called collusion.

    It started very early in the year (many challenges were actually set up in Oct/Nov 2015) where the one clan, Easy Riders, had very large challenges where half the players in Easy Riders had a 400-600 rating advantage over their opponents.
    This by design to enable Easy Riders to collect the points from a very large challenge.

    Site responded with an edit that forced the matchups between players to be within 200 rating points of each other.

    The 4 clans kept setting challenges amongst themselves but the one clan kept winning by a large margin.

    Investigation revealed that at least one player was constantly throwing his games to his opponent in Easy Riders.
    That player by the way is McTayto, the first person to respond to your post.

    I would like to thank you for taking an interest in the clan feature.
  5. 07 Jul '16 07:38
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Players skewing their ratings by resigning games will not go away.
    Also called sandbagging.
    And it certainly does not reside solely in the clan feature.
    You should enter some tournaments and see some players ratings there.

    What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue.

    Several clans have conspired to set up clan challenges ...[text shortened]... o respond to your post.

    I would like to thank you for taking an interest in the clan feature.
    He said clan leaders, not chicken shack peasants!
  6. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    07 Jul '16 12:38 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    He said clan leaders, not chicken shack peasants!
    Sir,
    I see the truth is hurting you, but it is the truth. I am not a clan leader either, but everything he said is the TRUTH!! Mctayto is the clan leader of arrow isn't he, one of the Clan Leaders that hand you points on a silver platter!

    Subscriber mghrn55
    UP DATE:
    06 Jul '16 21:32
    Some statistics from Easy Riders clan challenges in 2016 with 3 clans.
    Anti-Metallica
    Breaking Bad
    Arrow

    Updated as of today.
    Completed challenges - 28
    Record 27 challenges won, 1 lost.
    Total Net points from these challenges is 396.
    The one lost challenge is included in the Net points.

    Just pulled the completed challenges for now.
    There are more challenges in progress and pending to collect.

    What is important to note here is that Easy Riders have gathered 396 points from 3 clans they are in collusion with this year.
    This is NOT competition with 3 clans. Not when the record is 27W, 1L.

    If you adjust the point totals to reflect possible upcoming rollback of points, the standings look as follows:

    Net Points
    Wycombe Symposium - 511
    Metallica - 506
    Easy Riders - 386
    Kindest Regards,
    Your Old Friend,
    -VR
  7. 07 Jul '16 14:51
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    He said clan leaders, not chicken shack peasants!
    There is intelligent conversation going on here.
    Please sit in the corner !!
  8. 07 Jul '16 15:20
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Players skewing their ratings by resigning games will not go away.
    Also called sandbagging.
    And it certainly does not reside solely in the clan feature.
    You should enter some tournaments and see some players ratings there.

    What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue.

    Several clans have conspired to set up clan challenges ...[text shortened]... o respond to your post.

    I would like to thank you for taking an interest in the clan feature.
    "What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue."

    Yes, agreed.

    But if all clan leaders can self-police (honour system?) and only create clan challenges that bypass the sandbagging as you call it and match players based on actual skill - there would be no need for collusion and the issue goes away.

    The collusion is seen as a solution to a problem. You might not like the solution - but there it is. Take away the problem ... no need for a solution you (we) don't like.
  9. 07 Jul '16 15:50
    Originally posted by arbeider
    "What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue."

    Yes, agreed.

    But if all clan leaders can self-police (honour system?) and only create clan challenges that bypass the sandbagging as you call it and match players based on actual skill - there would be no need for collusion and the issue goes away.

    The collusion is seen as ...[text shortened]... olution - but there it is. Take away the problem ... no need for a solution you (we) don't like.
    Respectfully, I have to disagree.
    Sandbagging exists everywhere, not just in clan feature.
    I've entered tournaments and gotten burned by players rated at 1200
    but with a high of 1800-2000 in last year.

    Fighting sandbagging can be managed by the clan leaders.
    A good clan leader will identify opponents whose ratings are not what they should be.
    And manage the challenges accordingly.
    And some clan leaders are better than others !!
    As I have said many times before, the success of a clan is based on the performance
    of the clan members on the chessboard.
    AND the performance of the clan leaders in setting challenges with their opponents and evaluating challenges received !!

    That one clan leader is better than another should NOT be subject to penalty.

    To have several clan leaders set up challenges designed to funnel points
    to one clan is completely different !!
    It is an abuse of the system which is basically an honor system.

    To say that these clans carried out this collusion to further expose a weakness in the clan feature,
    or to initiate a path to a better solution is a viewpoint that I just can not agree with !!

    A final comment, some have tried to point out Metallica's won-lost record
    as a red flag for unbalanced challenges.
    I have stated in another post that I am proud of our 90W, 31L record.
    And I have no problem defending it. We try to win every challenge !!

    But if we were to toss that line of argument back at our accusers, then perhaps someone on
    the other side of the fence would like to explain Easy Riders record 27W, 1L against 3 clans
    that account for more than half their net points this year !!
  10. 07 Jul '16 15:57
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Respectfully, I have to disagree.
    Sandbagging exists everywhere, not just in clan feature.
    I've entered tournaments and gotten burned by players rated at 1200
    but with a high of 1800-2000 in last year.

    Fighting sandbagging can be managed by the clan leaders.
    A good clan leader will identify opponents whose ratings are not what they should be.
    And ...[text shortened]... s record 27W, 1L against 3 clans
    that account for more than half their net points this year !!
    "Sandbagging exists everywhere, not just in clan feature."

    Absolutely. Everywhere here and on many other chess sites.

    "Fighting sandbagging can be managed by the clan leaders. "

    That is all I am asking.

    Thank you and everyone who has responded for taking the time to engage - I appreciate it.
  11. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    07 Jul '16 16:07
    Originally posted by arbeider
    "What is going on here is something that is beyond the sandbagging issue."

    Yes, agreed.

    But if all clan leaders can self-police (honour system?) and only create clan challenges that bypass the sandbagging as you call it and match players based on actual skill - there would be no need for collusion and the issue goes away.

    The collusion is seen as ...[text shortened]... olution - but there it is. Take away the problem ... no need for a solution you (we) don't like.
    Sir,
    As you stated you are a new Clan Leader. You will learn the weaknesses and strenghts of your players as times go on. You will learn the strenghts and weaknesses of other Clan players.

    As an example there are players who are at my rating, who I can't seem to be able to beat. It is because of their style of play, be it an opening, or middle game, end game that they are better at than I am. I have noticed that especially in tournament play. A good Clan leader will pick up on that. It takes a lot of hard work on the Clan leaders part.

    This is not something you pick up on over night. You have to be playing the Clans for years, and be a Great Clan Leader like we have to notice these strenghts and weaknesses and use them to your advantage. If you get to be half as good at it as our Clan Leader is, you will become a good clan leader. I play for Metallica by the way.

    I speak for myself, not for Metallica. Our Clan leader does that, and may have some words to add to this conversation at some point. New thoughts and ideas are always welcomed, and thank you for showing your interest. You seem to have an open mind.

    I hope you don't mind my five cents worth, as you did want to know what "Clan Leaders" had to say. Just from a player who has played in this clan for around 8 years. I play on other sites and have other Captains/Leaders, none match up to Shortciruit.

    Kind Regards,
    Sincerely,
    -VR
  12. Subscriber lemondrop
    The Art of War
    07 Jul '16 16:25
    Originally posted by Very Rusty
    Sir,
    As you stated you are a new Clan Leader. You will learn the weaknesses and strenghts of your players as times go on. You will learn the strenghts and weaknesses of other Clan players.

    As an example there are players who are at my rating, who I can't seem to be able to beat. It is because of their style of play, be it an opening, or middle g ...[text shortened]... and have other Captains/Leaders, none match up to Shortciruit.

    Kind Regards,
    Sincerely,
    -VR
    there are clan leaders on this site with integrity
    shorty is not one of them
    your loyalty is admirable but your evaluation of your leader is flawed
    he has manipulated the system for years
    why you can't see this, I don't know
    well I do know
    you defend your clan like the good soldier that you are staying ignorant all the while of your leaders dubious tactics
    the system is flawed
    I don't think it can be fixed because people are flawed except, of course, members of Metallica
  13. Subscriber Very Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    07 Jul '16 16:33
    Originally posted by lemondrop
    there are clan leaders on this site with integrity
    shorty is not one of them

    Sir,
    Name the Clan leaders you THINK have integrity, then we will get a response about your list. Shortcircuit has more integrity in his little finger than you have in your whole 78 lb of fury body. Stop talking your drivel please!
    Kindest Regards,
    Sincerely,
    -VR
  14. Subscriber lemondrop
    The Art of War
    07 Jul '16 16:39
    Originally posted by Very Rusty
    Sir,
    Name the Clan leaders you THINK have integrity, then we will get a response about your list. Shortcircuit has more integrity in his little finger than you have in your whole 78 lb of fury body. Stop talking your drivel please!
    Kindest Regards,
    Sincerely,
    -VR
    the little integrity that I do have towers over the one you kneel too
  15. 07 Jul '16 16:44
    Originally posted by Very Rusty
    Sir,
    As you stated you are a new Clan Leader. You will learn the weaknesses and strenghts of your players as times go on. You will learn the strenghts and weaknesses of other Clan players.

    As an example there are players who are at my rating, who I can't seem to be able to beat. It is because of their style of play, be it an opening, or middle g ...[text shortened]... and have other Captains/Leaders, none match up to Shortciruit.

    Kind Regards,
    Sincerely,
    -VR
    Yes I think that is pretty much all correct (except for the hyperbole about getting to be half as good as shortcircuit). I know he is too modest to think that 😉

    Clearly there is a skill to this and clearly shortcircuit and many others are way ahead of me currently with knowing the players on the site. I have already seen when doing matchups and looking at histories how some players seem to just have another player's number.

    But that is not what I am talking about. I like negotiating with the clan leaders, it is both art and science. What I don't like is feeling like someone is trying to trick me by negotiating dishonestly, trying to slip a 1700 (current rating 1520) into a match with a 1400 (current rating 1480) when I am not looking.

    I think the good clan leaders want their players to have fun, not just stomp some poor innocent in a bad matchup. But maybe I have this all wrong.

    Maybe trying to slip that 1700 in is all part of the fun and part of the game. Maybe it is buyer beware and if you are dumb enough to accept a bad challenge you get what you get and eventually your clan members leave. I have considered that.

    Maybe I am too pollyanna in my approach to all this and not really cut out to be a clan leader. 🙂