1. Germany
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    25 Feb '11 15:19
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    This thread is about classical music. You are of no use to this OP!
    I remember this interview with Frank Zappa where he explains how he studied Webern, Schönberg, and serial music in general (Zappa fans will know that he was a big fan of Stravinsky and Varèse, as well). He tried to emulate it and wrote some music according to the rules of serial music. He said it was the most boring music he had ever heard. The morale of the story, I think, is that the "gift of melody" (and Zappa did have that gift, I think - Hot Rats for example is full of wonderful melodies) is perhaps best not defined by rules and conventions but is something more intuitive.
  2. Joined
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    25 Feb '11 17:25
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I remember this interview with Frank Zappa where he explains how he studied Webern, Schönberg, and serial music in general (Zappa fans will know that he was a big fan of Stravinsky and Varèse, as well). He tried to emulate it and wrote some music according to the rules of serial music. He said it was the most boring music he had ever heard. The morale o ...[text shortened]... elodies) is perhaps best not defined by rules and conventions but is something more intuitive.
    Who ever said melody is ruled by convention? Zappa is a music great indeed and a most clever lyricist, wonderful if underrated guitarist and all around pop icon. Trying to emulate the greats of the past does not always work. If did not work for Zappa that's too bad, but his pronouncing it boring is meaningless. So what? Boring to him? Does that make it boring to everyone? Heaven forbid we should go with anyone's particular opinion. I don't like today's tuneless, soulless music. That does not mean you or FMF can't like it. Your prerogative to lsiten to whatevr you like. Thankfully there's room for all tastes and a large array of music to choose from. I happen to marvel at Schubert's incredibly rich ability to write tuneful, melodic music. 600 plus lied, each a jewel in miniature, nine symphonies, various chamber works, piano pieces, sonatas, one failed opera, incidental music, the list is endless. His well of inspiration seems only to have been cut of by an untimely death. Just listen to his Arpeggione sonata, amere passing fancy for an instrument that did not survive the rigors of the time. In this example done on the cello because thee is no extant Arpeggione with which to play this wonderful piece.
    YouTube
  3. Germany
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    25 Feb '11 17:55
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Who ever said melody is ruled by convention? Zappa is a music great indeed and a most clever lyricist, wonderful if underrated guitarist and all around pop icon. Trying to emulate the greats of the past does not always work. If did not work for Zappa that's too bad, but his pronouncing it boring is meaningless. So what? Boring to him? Does that make it ...[text shortened]... ione with which to play this wonderful piece.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P_5mEVDOxg
    I haven't listened to Zappa's serial works myself - I doubt they were released so I don't know if they were boring or not.

    There is plenty of good recent music, but you have to have a little more open mind to look for it, perhaps.
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    25 Feb '11 18:42
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I haven't listened to Zappa's serial works myself - I doubt they were released so I don't know if they were boring or not.

    There is plenty of good recent music, but you have to have a little more open mind to look for it, perhaps.
    My mind is plenty open. I lend my ear constantly to a lot of it (new music) being the father of two teens. I frankly find heavy metal more compelling than, let's say, Andy Partridge.

    I thought you said Zappa said these works were boring. I suspect it was a simple case of skill not fitting the medium. I'm not saying lack of skill, but genre of adeptness. Have you ever listened to operatic greats singing pop music? Awful! Seems to work way better in the opposite direction. I listened to Sheryl Crowe doing a number from La Boheme and was pleasantly surprised/impressed. Perhaps Zappa was simply unable to tackle a system he inherently rejected as stuffy and rigid. At least he tried. Says a lot about the great musician he was. Did you know he had Steve Vai audition for him and told Vai he should go play for Linda Ronstadt? Merely goes to show that even one's musical tastes may fail one even in one's selected genre. Vai tells the story with great amusement and respect for the incredible musician Zappa was. But quite frankly Zappa erred. Vai is amazing. I don't especially like his music, but the dude can play.

    Tell me which recent artist merits an ear and I'll happily listen. In the meantime take a listen to Accrasicauda, an Iraqui heavy metal band. They are pretty awesome:
    YouTube
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    25 Feb '11 19:49
    While you're at it listen to the birth of metal! Beethoven Grosse Fugue!

    YouTube
  6. Germany
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    25 Feb '11 19:561 edit
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    My mind is plenty open. I lend my ear constantly to a lot of it (new music) being the father of two teens. I frankly find heavy metal more compelling than, let's say, Andy Partridge.

    I thought you said Zappa said these works were boring. I suspect it was a simple case of skill not fitting the medium. I'm not saying lack of skill, but genre of adeptn qui heavy metal band. They are pretty awesome:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fIDFSUMvLY
    Yeah, Zappa said they were boring. But maybe he was wrong and his serial works are awesome. Who knows. Vai did eventually work with Zappa, so I guess he came back on his initial verdict. I agree with your general sentiment though, great guitar player, perhaps not such a great composer. I have listened to one of his albums and it wasn't bad but not particularly impressive either.

    I grew up with heavy metal, actually (I'm 25). Got a reasonable collection, a few hundred records perhaps, though these days it's maybe 10-20% of what I listen to. The Iraqi stuff is actually not bad at all, though their brand of thrash metal is perhaps not the most original (but well-executed).

    As for recent artists, I'm a fan of Michael Gira and his works. The Swans are pretty well-known so maybe you know them already, but:

    YouTube (1995)

    Mike Patton has made some interesting stuff, here's a sample from one of his many projects:

    YouTube (2001)

    Since you like classical maybe you'll like Therion, who make a blend of heavy metal mixed with strong Wagner/Orff/etc.-influences - they record with a full orchestra but unfortunately they lack the funds to tour with one.

    YouTube (2001)

    Coil's swan song is exceptionally good:

    YouTube (2005)

    Have a Nice Life recorded a masterpiece in 2008, blending shoegaze, post-rock, drone and more. There is a buildup to a climax at around five and a half minutes, better executed than any post-rock outfit has done so far.

    YouTube

    You also probably ought to listen to Ulver, who started out as a black metal outfit but are now at the forefront of modern avant-garde music.

    YouTube (2000)
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    25 Feb '11 20:55
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Yeah, Zappa said they were boring. But maybe he was wrong and his serial works are awesome. Who knows. Vai did eventually work with Zappa, so I guess he came back on his initial verdict. I agree with your general sentiment though, great guitar player, perhaps not such a great composer. I have listened to one of his albums and it wasn't bad but not parti ...[text shortened]... refront of modern avant-garde music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqxr7WFzuI (2000)
    Thanks for the links. I shall listen indeed! I am familiar with the various groups that blend clssical with metal. Mostly to good effect, but some sound contrived and stuffier than the works they quote. Zappa did indeed change his mind and indeed worked with Zappa later, but to dismiss Vai as worthy only of Rondstadt is hilarious. I guess we all have our moments.

    I like honest avante garde, not the stuff done simply to try and get away with something or prove the crowds' stupidity like the dude who plays middle c and remains silent on stage for two hours!?! Experimentation in any genre is worth a listen. We're very lucky to have a local classical group, Voices of Change, that does nothing but serious avante garde. My son is a student at the local arts high school. I am lucky to listen frequently to new up and coming artists in various genres and styles. It is an awesome place where you walk the halls and catch a kid doing Bach solo cello, while in the next hallway there's kids practicing their metal unplugged while waiting for a sound room, dancers, etc. One time I was startled when climbing to the third floor a kid behind me suddenly broke into a Wagner aria from Das Rheingold!

    BTW, I fill in for my kid's jam sessions when their notoriously unreliable drummer fails to show! Indeed there is a drummer at the school who is incredible as they come. No doubt music is interesting. I strike a balance with my kid. I listen to his stuff, but he has to listen to some of mine. He came with me to Butterfly last season and this one he went with mom to Gounod's Romeo and Juliet.
  8. Germany
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    25 Feb '11 21:53
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Thanks for the links. I shall listen indeed! I am familiar with the various groups that blend clssical with metal. Mostly to good effect, but some sound contrived and stuffier than the works they quote. Zappa did indeed change his mind and indeed worked with Zappa later, but to dismiss Vai as worthy only of Rondstadt is hilarious. I guess we all have ou ...[text shortened]... ith me to Butterfly last season and this one he went with mom to Gounod's Romeo and Juliet.
    Hadn't heard of Gounod before, just found a clip on YouTube, but didn't like that soprano much.
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    25 Feb '11 22:51
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Hadn't heard of Gounod before, just found a clip on YouTube, but didn't like that soprano much.
    Gounod and sopranos are not for everyone!
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    26 Feb '11 02:16
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Hadn't heard of Gounod before, just found a clip on YouTube, but didn't like that soprano much.
    Here's something to help you purge your mind of sopranos!
    YouTube
  11. Germany
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    26 Feb '11 08:16
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Here's something to help you purge your mind of sopranos!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglVqACd1C8
    My girlfriend is a Tool fan. I never really got into them, although they have an innovative sound it does get a little monotonous for me after a while.
  12. Joined
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    26 Feb '11 15:251 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    My girlfriend is a Tool fan. I never really got into them, although they have an innovative sound it does get a little monotonous for me after a while.
    I listened to all you links. Quite intersting, but will take some time to digest. Surprsingly I did nt care that much for the group with the classical influence. Your first link, Swan, i believe, is excellent.

    Tool is not for everybody. Their videos tend to be weird and morbid.

    But back to melody. I find interesting that some of the least melodious giants of the past are quite appealing because they did so much with the themes they could come up with such as Brahms. His cello sonata in e minor is not exactly soaring melodiously yet captivating and brooding, haunting.

    YouTube&feature=fvst

    Being from the Netherlands how did you learn such excellent English and without Briticisms?

    Have you heard of Apocalyptica? Excellent blend of classical and metally sound!

    YouTube

    How about Purple Hzae by Kronos Quartet!

    YouTube
  13. Germany
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    26 Feb '11 20:36
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    While you're at it listen to the birth of metal! Beethoven Grosse Fugue!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n68WBx91nQE
    Nice tune, I only really know Beethoven's Fifth and Ninth. I see where you're getting with your comparison, reminds me of Michael Romeo's guitar play.
  14. Germany
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    26 Feb '11 20:55
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    I listened to all you links. Quite intersting, but will take some time to digest. Surprsingly I did nt care that much for the group with the classical influence. Your first link, Swan, i believe, is excellent.

    Tool is not for everybody. Their videos tend to be weird and morbid.

    But back to melody. I find interesting that some of the least melodiou ...[text shortened]... 7ACtqM

    How about Purple Hzae by Kronos Quartet!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP7rjppeRA0
    Nice to hear you like Swans. Their work is extremely diverse. Their early work is some of the heaviest music recorded in their era - they are also loosely associated with Glenn Branca. Their last album before their breakup (they reunited in 2010 and released a fairly good album) heavily influenced Godspeed You! Black Emperor, it's very good but not very accessible. The mid-years of Swans show a more pronounced Joy Division and Leonard Cohen influence. Folky themes, but very dark and depressing.

    Brahms is quite good - I prefer Romantic composers with a little more punch like Mahler though. I've heard Apocalyptica and seen them live on various occasions. Amped up cellos, nice stuff. The Kronos Quartet cover is quite amusing.

    As for my English, it's a consequence of various things - bilingual education, internet, BBC, living abroad for some time, and having to read scientific papers and English-language books. Furthermore, Dutch is quite close to English linguistically, and the English language is quite pervasive in Dutch society as well. In fact, English is slowly establishing itself as a lingua franca - for example the official language of my Master's degree is English, and many new words in Dutch are simply English words, particularly things relating to technology. I'd say about two thirds of the population speaks English well enough to be able to have a simple conversation.
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    26 Feb '11 21:01
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Nice tune, I only really know Beethoven's Fifth and Ninth. I see where you're getting with your comparison, reminds me of Michael Romeo's guitar play.
    Beethoven's is the most complex musical mind of all time. He stwed for years working on sketches. Composing never came easy to him at all. Friends would find him dishevelled, wild eyed, would refuse to eat for days. All this while working out the bugs of his greatest ideas and bringing them to fruition! Stone deaf by the time he wrote the grosse fugue. His other work around this same time is his quartet opus 131 in C#minor. A wondrous work!
    YouTube&feature=related
    Saddest music ever written, some say!
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