Is Atonal Music Music ?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I think that there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training. Without this realization, there is ignorance. It seems like this is true of anything that requires abstract thought and depth of understanding.

This sounds suspiciously like a secret-decoder ring ...[text shortened]... hem.

Nemesio[/b]

What insipid desolate garbage.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's been my experience that those who have developed an understanding of "modern art", be it music, visual arts, dance, etc. can move from one to the other relatively easily. I think that there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training. Without this realization, there is ignorance.
It seems like this i ...[text shortened]... Dörner slide trumpet
Franz Hautzinger quartertone trumpet

Nice ambient music, yes it's music.

Originally posted by eldragonfly
What insipid desolate garbage.

Troll.

If you say so. Now let's get back to this idea that only Western music is music and that music is only about tension and release of tension, or else resolution to the tonic and that all music must be rigorously defined and/or rigorously catergorized or else it isn't just really music, at least in yer neck of the woods, that is.

Originally posted by eldragonfly
If you say so. Now let's get back to this idea that only Western music is music and that music is only about release and tension, or else resolution to the tonic and that all music must be rigorously defined and/or rigorously catergorized or else it isn't just really music, at least in yer neck of the woods, that is.

Find a dictionary and look up the word "music".

Originally posted by kbaumen
Find a dictionary and look up the word "music".

Most dictionaries have too little space to provide a useful entry. An encyclopedia might be more useful.

Originally posted by eldragonfly
If you say so. Now let's get back to this idea that only Western music is music and that music is only about tension and release of tension, or else resolution to the tonic and that all music must be rigorously defined and/or rigorously catergorized or else it isn't just really music, at least in yer neck of the woods, that is.

Red herring = fallacy

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I think that there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training. Without this realization, there is ignorance. It seems like this is true of anything that requires abstract thought and depth of understanding.

This sounds suspiciously like a secret-decoder ring hem.

Nemesio[/b]

"The idea that the 'realization' cannot be articulated or explained strikes me as a copout."

I didn't say that. What I did say was that "there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training." There is a difference. That said however, there are certain concepts requiring abstract thought and depth of understanding that seem to be extremely difficult to impart. Take chess for example.

"All we have are just the contrivances of composers who spend their lives doing what I was able to do in fifteen minutes after a semester of computer music."

lol. Spoken like someone totally without a clue. I can't tell you how many software engineers fresh out of university I've come across who thought themselves as producing professional quality software but couldn't - especially projects requiring abstract thought and depth of understanding. Believe it or not, all of them with even more than one semester and an 'A' to show for it. Somehow the ones who couldn't discern the difference between what they were producing and professional quality software never did seem to be able to do it. The 'realization' never quite happened for them. For the majority it wasn't because of a lack of intelligence. Care to guess what held them back?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I didn't say that. What I did say was that "there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training." There is a difference. That said however, there are certain concepts requiring abstract thought and depth of understanding that seem to be extremely difficult to impart. Take chess for example.

Again, it's a secret-decoder ring theory: it's hard to explain, but if you try really hard, it's there.

Perhaps you can begin to enlighten me.

Spoken like someone totally without a clue. I can't tell you how many software engineers fresh out of university I've come across who thought themselves as producing professional quality software but couldn't - especially projects requiring abstract thought and depth of understanding. Believe it or not, all of them with even more than one semester and an 'A' to show for it. Somehow the ones who couldn't discern the difference between what they were producing and professional quality software never did seem to be able to do it. The 'realization' never quite happened for them. For the majority it wasn't because of a lack of intelligence. Care to guess what held them back?

I guess you're saying my piece wasn't any good, that it was not in fact a good example of the
computer music medium. Of course, if you can't define what makes for 'good' in computer
music, then we have no way of knowing.

Yes, an 'A' doesn't mean proficiency, especially in America where A's are now 'average' rather
than C's. That having been said, with very little experience, I did 'create' a 'piece' of music
which was rather indistinguishable from the ones you gave me. What does this tell you about
the music? It tells me that it doesn't require a great deal of expertise or creativity.

You asked me to listen to the pieces and for my reaction. I was hoping you would do the same,
since this is a dialogue. If you are just going to insult me for thinking this stuff isn't music,
then why persist in this thread. If you want to share your experience or knowledge in this field
in the hope that I might too come to appreciate this genre of organized sound, then perhaps you
should stop insulting me.

Nemesio

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"The idea that the 'realization' cannot be articulated or explained strikes me as a copout."

I didn't say that. What I did say was that "there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training." There is a difference. That said however, there are certain concepts requiring abstract thought and depth of ...[text shortened]... asn't because of a lack of intelligence. Care to guess what held them back?[/b]

The music you are referring to here requiring a special realization to appreciate is nothing more than ambience. You might as well say that somebody needs a special enlightenment to appreciate the ambient sounds of sand and surf while lounging oceanside, which is patently absurd. It is what it is, nothing more. But at least the sand and the surf don't have any artistic pretensions, which is probably why the "Relaxing Sounds of Nature" albums sell better.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I didn't say that. What I did say was that "there is a "realization" that needs to occur that doesn't necessarily come with university training." There is a difference. That said however, there are certain concepts requiring abstract thought and depth of understanding that seem to be extremely difficult to impart. T ound, then perhaps you
should stop insulting me.

Nemesio

[/b]"Again, it's a secret-decoder ring theory: it's hard to explain, but if you try really hard, it's there. Perhaps you can begin to enlighten me."

I'm having enough trouble just trying to get you to understand the difference between what you inferred I said and what I actually said.

"That having been said, with very little experience, I did 'create' a 'piece' of music which was rather indistinguishable from the ones you gave me. What does this tell you about the music?"

What it tells me is that evidently YOU are incapable of distinguishing the difference. By the way, the answer to the question as to "what held them back" is arrogance. In case you missed it, I'm drawing a parallel here.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The music you are referring to here requiring a special realization to appreciate is nothing more than ambience. You might as well say that somebody needs a special enlightenment to appreciate the ambient sounds of sand and surf while lounging oceanside, which is patently absurd. It is what it is, nothing more. But at least the sand and the surf don't ...[text shortened]... tistic pretensions, which is probably why the "Relaxing Sounds of Nature" albums sell better.

"Once I remember being handed a score composed by Mozart at the age of eleven. What could I say? I felt like de Kooning, who was asked to comment on a certain abstract painting, and answered in the negative. He was then told it was the work of a celebrated monkey. 'That's different. For a monkey, it's terrific.'"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
"Again, it's a secret-decoder ring theory: it's hard to explain, but if you try really hard, it's there. Perhaps you can begin to enlighten me."

I'm having enough trouble just trying to get you to understand the difference between what you inferred I said and what I actually said.

"That having been said, with very little experience, I ...[text shortened]... held them back" is arrogance. In case you missed it, I'm drawing a parallel here.

ThinkOfOne, the conversation you're having with Nemesio right now is beginning to sound remarkably similar to the one you and I had. Except in our conversation you were telling me that I needed a special realization in order to understand the Bible the way you do. Is this how you end all your conversations? Let me guess, pretty soon you're going to accuse Nemesio of arrogance, then Nemesio is going to point out that you're the one being arrogant, then you'll pretend that you've been misunderstood, then Nemesio will say he understands you just fine but that you're avoiding answering his questions, then you'll call him an ignorant hypocrite, and on and on and on... 😞

Why don't we just skip all that, avoid wasting our time, and you can go some place else with your bogus sense of superiority intact. Deal? This thread actually has some potential, and it would be nice not to foul it up right now.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The music you are referring to here requiring a special realization to appreciate is nothing more than ambience. You might as well say that somebody needs a special enlightenment to appreciate the ambient sounds of sand and surf while lounging oceanside, which is patently absurd. It is what it is, nothing more. But at least the sand and the surf don't ...[text shortened]... tistic pretensions, which is probably why the "Relaxing Sounds of Nature" albums sell better.

You're doing a better job of expressing what I'm thinking than I am 😕

We talk of 'the music of the surf,' but when I say that, I mean it metaphorically. That doesn't
mean I don't find the sound of the sea beautiful -- I do, very much in fact, just as I find certain
landscapes are beautiful. But I wouldn't call real landscapes art, just as I wouldn't call noises
made by nature music (with, perhaps, the exception of whale songs, which I think are very likely
music, even though I cannot understand it).

Do the tracks that ThinkOfOne asked me to listen to create a certain ambiance? Of course they do.
I find that ambiance uninteresting and uncreative, just as I find a canvas covered in brown paint
uninteresting and uncreative.

The question is, why can I listen to the 'uncreative' and 'uninteresting' noises of the sea and find
beauty, but am unable to do the same with the uncreative and uninteresting noises of humans?
I think there are two elements to the answer: 1) One's pleasure with the sounds of the sea and
surf is directly connected to the paradisal experience one usually has with the beach, and I think
it's intellectually dishonest to try to divorce that aspect from the independent sensory aspects of
it; and 2) The sea's noises are 'uncreated' in the sense that no sentient being makes the waves
crash, the gulls chirp, the sound of the water receding from the sand (let's keep theology out of
this, for simplicity's sake). As Epiphineheas said, it is what it is. There is no 'creative' to be
considered. For humans, however, there is a creative process, and some processes are more
creative than others. So, when a composer writes something that can be easily replicated by
someone as untrained as I am (not to mention uninterested), then we have to question the merit
of the work.

Now, if one wants to posit that music need not be creative, then that would be something of a
new perspective for me.

Nemesio

P.S., I'm not saying that I think Epiphinehas agrees with me, just that his post helped to clarify
something in my own mind.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm having enough trouble just trying to get you to understand the difference between what you inferred I said and what I actually said.

If you find that many people don't understand you, don't you think it might be a deficiency on
your part, rather than on every other person's part? Are you even opened to that possibility?

Are you saying that you are not going to share your experiences of this 'music' with me?

What it tells me is that evidently YOU are incapable of distinguishing the difference. By the way, the answer to the question as to "what held them back" is arrogance. In case you missed it, I'm drawing a parallel here.

So you only plan to insult me? Just say that, and I'll know not to respond. If you want to
discuss culturally relevant things, then please take a different tack. I'm not in the Debates
forum, nor the Spirituality Forum. I really think that people discussing art should be able to
have a conversation about the art forms that mean something to them without resorting to
insults.

So you think I'm arrogant and that this arrogance is obstructing my ability to appreciate this
organized sound. Okay, if you aren't going to share your experience with this medium in an
effort to help me understand, I'll ignore the insult, and what makes you believe that I am
arrogant and, if this is true, why my arrogance would get in the way of music?

Nemesio