Mozart or Beethoven

While I love both I find Beethoven more intellectually challenging whereas the genius of Mozart nears perfection. Perhaps Beethoven's somewhat less facile composing style forced him to pursue innovation beyond his ability? I firmly believe Beethoven changed music forever and there is music before and after The Eroica symphony. We are fortunate to have both and that they were able to meet in person.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
While I love both I find Beethoven more intellectually challenging whereas the genius of Mozart nears perfection. Perhaps Beethoven's somewhat less facile composing style forced him to pursue innovation beyond his ability? I firmly believe Beethoven changed music forever and there is music before and after The Eroica symphony. We are fortunate to have both and that they were able to meet in person.

FFS... except for the Requiem, Mozart was a boring, anemic, galanterie-filled composer-for-money. Beethoven had balls. The choice is easy. Dvorak was better than Mozart. Tchaikovsky was better than Mozart. Let's be honest, Salieri was, in cold, hard fact, better than Mozart.

But even though Beethoven could outcompose Mozart without so much as getting his pants on, even he wasn't a patch on der alter Bach. If you want genius, you need look no further than Bach.

Richard

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
FFS... except for the Requiem, Mozart was a boring, anemic, galanterie-filled composer-for-money. Beethoven had balls. The choice is easy. Dvorak was better than Mozart. Tchaikovsky was better than Mozart. Let's be honest, Salieri was, in cold, hard fact, better than Mozart.

But even though Beethoven could outcompose Mozart without so much as a patch on der alter Bach. If you want genius, you need look no further than Bach.

Richard

WOW! Harsh indeed. HOw do you figure Dvorak was better than Mozart? Tchaikovsky? Let's see. Don Giovanni is the best opera. Already one up on both composers mentioned. Two comparable works between Dvorak and Mozart is their serenade for winds. Dvorak's is competent whereas Mozart's is pure genius. None of Tchaikosvsky's symphonies comes near Mozart's last three. As for Bach, no argument there. Bach is one of the big three B's for a reason. BTW Brahm's is way better in his passing fancies than Dvorak and Tchaikovsky's combined. Mind you I love both altter two greatly. Until Brahm's first symphony no other work deserved being called Beethoven's tenth. Neither approximated the sublime genius of the Brahm's German Requiem. Latly, Salieri? Really? Salon music at best, competent but mediocre. Not a single Salieri work is common in the greater repertoire, not an opera, chamber piece, concerto, symphony. Hack through and through.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
WOW! Harsh indeed. HOw do you figure Dvorak was better than Mozart? Tchaikovsky? Let's see. Don Giovanni is the best opera. Already one up on both composers mentioned. Two comparable works between Dvorak and Mozart is their serenade for winds. Dvorak's is competent whereas Mozart's is pure genius. None of Tchaikosvsky's symphonies comes near Mozart's la ...[text shortened]... epertoire, not an opera, chamber piece, concerto, symphony. Hack through and through.

What about Mahler? His 8th symphony? Isn't that high up the mobeet scale?

Originally posted by sonhouse
What about Mahler? His 8th symphony? Isn't that high up the mobeet scale?

I don't know the scale you're referencing, but Mahler was post-Brahms. Genius for sure if somewhat garrulous. I am more fond of the fifth than the eighth. Also, Mahler's greatest masterpiece was Das Lied von der Erde, not his symphonies, althought the 1st, 5th, 8th and 9th were masterpices as well. Did you know Mahler feared writing a tenth because he was convinced it would mean his death? Indeed he died in the middle of writing his tenth. I love his choral writing. I have an old remastered recording of Mahler conducted by Bruno Walter who knew Mahler intimately as he studied under Mahler.

Mahler's 8th is 48th on the list of top 100 symphonies whereas his 5th is #12. I don't agree with all the entries, but do agree with these two.

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-symp.html

Mahler for me anyday, over those 2 punks.

Chopin was better than the prior 2 mentioned punks of that era, who thought they could play piano!

If Franz Liszt had sat next to Mozart, Mozart would have had to buy some new lederhosen! 😛

Originally posted by mikelom
Mahler for me anyday, over those 2 punks.

Chopin was better than the prior 2 mentioned punks of that era, who thought they could play piano!

If Franz Liszt had sat next to Mozart, Mozart would have had to buy some new lederhosen! 😛

Yikes! Harsher than the others. Mahler is great to be sure as is Chopin, but no one would place either of them above Beethoven and Mozart. All one has to do is play the Chopin piano concertos back to back with Beethoven's fourth and fifth piano concertos, then listen to Mozart's #24 in CMinor and #20 in Dminor. Chopin's are beautiful to be sure, but not as meaty or well crafted as Beethoven's and Mozart's. Beethoven and Mozart were the best pianists of their day. It's too bad Chopin and Beethoven never met. They would have had great influence on one another.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
WOW! Harsh indeed. HOw do you figure Dvorak was better than Mozart? Tchaikovsky?

Simple. My gut reaction to just about any Mozart composition is "Very pretty, Wolfgang, but when does the music start?" What he did was technically excellent, but I have never felt any soul in it.

Richard

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
Simple. My gut reaction to just about any Mozart composition is "Very pretty, Wolfgang, but when does the music start?" What he did was technically excellent, but I have never felt any soul in it.

Richard

Perhaps you are not listening to the right Mozart. Try his piano quartets. The lsiten to his Sinfonia Concertante. Then move on to his paino conerto #9 in E-flat K271. HIs clarint concerto K622 is most excellent. Die Zauberflote, Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte and Le Nozze di Figaro are amongst the best operas ever. The sublime clarinet quintet stands alone as en exemplar of simplicity and genius writing. Give a listen to his motets like Ave Verum Corpus, or the Exultate Jubilate, his Coronation Mass. Mozart's string trio greatly influenced Beethoven. Listen to MOzart's and Beethoven's wind quintets side by side. All of the above are from merely "pretty" music, biut works of genius at its highest! Plenty of soul in the Jupiter Symphony and piano concerto #24 and #20. The middle movement of #24 is incredible!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
While I love both I find Beethoven more intellectually challenging whereas the genius of Mozart nears perfection. Perhaps Beethoven's somewhat less facile composing style forced him to pursue innovation beyond his ability? I firmly believe Beethoven changed music forever and there is music before and after The Eroica symphony. We are fortunate to have both and that they were able to meet in person.

I'd give the nod to Mozart, just on sheer talent. Beethoven however has produced some fine music as well

Originally posted by bill718
I'd give the nod to Mozart, just on sheer talent. Beethoven however has produced some fine music as well

What Mozart lacked that Beethoven had in abundance was the genius for revolutionary innovation. No Mozart work changed music forever. Beethoven had multiple works that altered the course of music histroy dramatacially. His Eroica Symphomy is a towering masterpiece dividing the past from the future. Curiously Beethoven's odd #'d works were always the trend setters. 3rd, 5th, 7th and the awesome 9th for his symphonies. Beeethoven's late string quartets and piano sonatas are incredible works of art. When Beethoven met Mozart he listened to a public performance of Mozart's Piano concerto#24 in Cminor and stated he would never be able to write anything like that. Beethoven then went on the write two revolutionary concerti in his 4th and 5th. Beethoven then had to elave Vienna hirriedly because his mother was dying. By the time he returned Mozart was dead. One can only speculate how these two giants might have influenced one another had they been able to share more thoughts and ideas. Instead Beethoven was left to be taught by Papa Haydn. A genius in his own right, but more rigid than Mozart.

Mozart said of Beethoven: "Some day this young man will give the world something to talk about!" Beethoven was seventeen when he met MOzart, listened to one of Mozart's subscription concerts and exclaimed he's never be able to write music like Mozart's. Subsequently Beethoven conducted/perfomed Mozart works in Bonn. Mozart's music exerted great influence on Beethoven because of this. Beethoven's early compositions were Mozart/Haydn like. Beethoven breaks away after studying counterpoint with Albrechtsberger in Vienna and finally assrts his individual genius with the Eroica.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Mozart said of Beethoven: "Some day this young man will give the world something to talk about!" Beethoven was seventeen when he met MOzart, listened to one of Mozart's subscription concerts and exclaimed he's never be able to write music like Mozart's. Subsequently Beethoven conducted/perfomed Mozart works in Bonn. Mozart's music exerted great influenc with Albrechtsberger in Vienna and finally assrts his individual genius with the Eroica.

Nice! BTW that was my scale, the MoZart BEEThoven scale🙂 Mo- Beet.

Here is a link to Mozart's 24 in c minor:

Andre Previn playing and conducting.

YouTube

You have to link to the rest of them, this is part 1.
It's amusing to see Andre conducting with left hand and playing bits on the piano with right hand! Looks like only the first movement in three parts. Dam.

Do you know if Alicia De Larrocha played this piece? I would assume so since she was a bit of a Mozart specialist. Among my favorite classical pianists!

Found one link to her doing it:
YouTube Not sure if the whole thing is there.

Here is a piece by her, by Mompou:

YouTube&feature=related

I think it's all there.

I did not know she died in 09, here is a tribute to her in Spanish:

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She is missed. RIP.

Here she is playing her beloved Spanish music: Albeniz Iberia

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She doesn't do too bad with Liszt either:

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More Albeniz Iberia IX:

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And more Alicia:

Asturias, which people mostly hear on guitar thanks to Segovia, but her is the original on piano by De Larrocha:

YouTube

More Albeniz by her, Cataluna:

YouTube&feature=related

Ravel:

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Manuel De Falla, ritual fire dance

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Just for comparison, here it is orchestrated with dancers and a REAL fire!:

YouTube&feature=related

Originally posted by sonhouse
Nice! BTW that was my scale, the MoZart BEEThoven scale🙂 Mo- Beet.

Here is a link to Mozart's 24 in c minor:

Andre Previn playing and conducting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqQPVDW7bkI

You have to link to the rest of them, this is part 1.
It's amusing to see Andre conducting with left hand and playing bits on the piano with right hand! Loo d Spanish music: Albeniz Iberia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjmqUzhEGio&feature=related

Alicia de Larrocha indeed died in 09. She recorded every Mozart piano concerto and performed all live. I was lucky to see her both in a concerto and recital. The Previn #24 has never received critical acclaim, yet I think Previn really understood Mozart. In effect it was the first classical recording I ever bought, but not the first I owned.He wrote an interesting cadenza for the recording. I was given a recording of Mozart's K361 Serenade for Winds on casette tape played by Colegium Aureum. I finally found a rcording of it, but is exorbitantly expensive! I willed myself to listen and began falling in love with Mozart. From there I began exploring all other composers, genres and finally opera! Thanks for all those links. That's one thing youtube is good for indeed. Mobeet!?! I would have never figured it out.