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  1. 15 Jun '13 20:29
    http://www.wqxr.org/?sf13961544=1#!/blogs/operavore/2013/jun/11/yearning-breathe-free-how-opera-speaks-our-deepest-selves/

    Opera in the end is about musicalizing feelings, emotions, yearnings, aspirations both romantic and not, jealousy, darkness and many other in a most beautiful art form. We have much to thank Jacopo Peri, inventor of opera.
  2. 17 Jun '13 08:17
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Opera in the end is about musicalizing feelings, emotions, yearnings, aspirations both romantic and not, jealousy, darkness and many other in a most beautiful art form.
    But opera can also be about using music to qualify or question the emotions on show. Joseph Kerman notes, for instance, that the "utterly inconclusive" music that ends the Quartet in Mozart's Idomeneo indicates that Idamante's "obligatory heroic deed" in slaying Neptune's monster will in fact "resolve nothing".

    We do this great art form a disservice if we suggest that it is only about expressing feelings - like the best poetry or prose literature, it can equally be about challenging or evaluating feelings.
  3. 17 Jun '13 11:49
    I think we're saying essentially the same, just in different words. No doubt some emotions can be left hanging, expressed in a different way, left unsaid even, allowed a glimpse merely, a breath away from our own, stirrings of dread or fear let loose onto the safety of being in the audience lets us hide in the safety of anonymity, but moved nonetheless. Some emotions simply come out personally simply because we were moved by an aria or an ensemble, perhaps because at the time we did not understand the language of the number. I remember well my first exposure to Die Zauberflote. Excerpted numbers by students in costume at a local conservatory. I marveled at the grace of the writing, the facility of flow of ideas and was moved by the enormous skill of Mozart. I had no idea what they were singing about. Later in the concert Puccini comes out in excerpts from Madama Butterfly. Incredible what 100 years can do in opera. Pure unadulterated, distilled raw feeling hit me in the face like a ton of bricks.
  4. Standard member mikelom
    Ajarn
    18 Jun '13 11:34
    How about not the emotions of the opera itself, but of the man ( in this case, a man )/ woman singing it; their pleasure, and then the viewers'/experiencers' response? That, to me, also releases grand emotion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpoCc32dNkg

    -m.
  5. 18 Jun '13 21:06
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    I think we're saying essentially the same, just in different words. No doubt some emotions can be left hanging, expressed in a different way, left unsaid even, allowed a glimpse merely, a breath away from our own, stirrings of dread or fear let loose onto the safety of being in the audience lets us hide in the safety of anonymity, but moved nonetheless. ...[text shortened]... do in opera. Pure unadulterated, distilled raw feeling hit me in the face like a ton of bricks.
    I don't think it is quite the same - what I'm talking about is the way in which music might criticise / undercut the emotions the character feels. In this sense, the music would be thinking more than feeling. Of course, the two processes can't be cleanly separated, as one thinks and feels simultaneously. One can follow a piece of music intellectually (eg, with full awareness of key, melody, orchestration, harmony) and at the same time be profoundly moved by it!
  6. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    18 Jun '13 23:10 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    http://www.wqxr.org/?sf13961544=1#!/blogs/operavore/2013/jun/11/yearning-breathe-free-how-opera-speaks-our-deepest-selves/

    Opera in the end is about musicalizing feelings, emotions, yearnings, aspirations both romantic and not, jealousy, darkness and many other in a most beautiful art form. We have much to thank Jacopo Peri, inventor of opera.
    Wiki mentions Dafne, 1597, is the music for it extant? I know it wouldn't very high today except for historical value but just wondered if it was totally lost. Maybe it is hidden in an ancient library waiting to be re-discovered.

    BTW, Teinosuke, is that about the famous Japanese actor and film maker
    Teinosuke Kinugasa?
  7. 19 Jun '13 00:13 / 2 edits
  8. 19 Jun '13 00:21 / 1 edit
  9. 19 Jun '13 00:22
    Originally posted by mikelom
    How about not the emotions of the opera itself, but of the man ( in this case, a man )/ woman singing it; their pleasure, and then the viewers'/experiencers' response? That, to me, also releases grand emotion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpoCc32dNkg

    -m.
    Indeed that makes opera grand in a very special and wonderful way. The art form brings forth all sorts of yearnings, idealized personifications of superhuman beings able to fully express what they feel in ways which mere mortals cannot. Nessun Dorma is quite simply one of those happy inventions in art where anyone, steeped in opera or not, can fully enjoy.
  10. 19 Jun '13 00:23
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Wiki mentions Dafne, 1597, is the music for it extant? I know it wouldn't very high today except for historical value but just wondered if it was totally lost. Maybe it is hidden in an ancient library waiting to be re-discovered.

    BTW, Teinosuke, is that about the famous Japanese actor and film maker
    Teinosuke Kinugasa?
    Can you imagine finding the score for Dafne? That would be similar to the Englishmen who found the theoretically extant manuscripts by Schubert in a musty old library in the mid 19th century. The most important step towards the recovery of the neglected works was the journey to Vienna which Sir George Grove (widely known for the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians) and Arthur Sullivan made in the autumn of 1867. The travelers rescued from oblivion seven symphonies, the Rosamunde incidental music, some of the Masses and operas, some of the chamber works, and a vast quantity of miscellaneous pieces and songs.This led to more widespread public interest in Schubert's work.They leapfrogged for joy! Schubert immortalized various poets who would be but a footnote had he not set their works to music in wonderful lieder!
  11. 19 Jun '13 00:26
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    I don't think it is quite the same - what I'm talking about is the way in which music might criticise / undercut the emotions the character feels. In this sense, the music would be thinking more than feeling. Of course, the two processes can't be cleanly separated, as one thinks and feels simultaneously. One can follow a piece of music intellectually (eg, ...[text shortened]... eness of key, melody, orchestration, harmony) and at the same time be profoundly moved by it!
    I cannot argue against any of your points, but still feel we are saying the same thing almost, simply in different manner. I defer to you to so succinctly express your thoughts yet at the same time convey a deep truth of musical theater art.
  12. 19 Jun '13 22:16
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    BTW, Teinosuke, is that about the famous Japanese actor and film maker
    Teinosuke Kinugasa?
    Yes, I am named after him (as mentioned recently in the thread on anime). I realised a while ago that he was obscure enough to most Westerners that you could be sure no one else would have taken the user name!
  13. 20 Jun '13 12:01
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Indeed that makes opera grand in a very special and wonderful way. The art form brings forth all sorts of yearnings, idealized personifications of superhuman beings able to fully express what they feel in ways which mere mortals cannot. Nessun Dorma is quite simply one of those happy inventions in art where anyone, steeped in opera or not, can fully enjoy.
    And yet the characters, especially from the nineteenth century onwards, are so often far from superhuman. In a sense, the beauty of the music helps to dignify the experiences and emotions of ordinary human beings!

    After a recent Covent Garden production of L'Elisir d'Amore, a friend Emailed me to comment: "Time almost stood still when Alagna sang Una Furtiva Lagrima, despite Nemorino being a berk and seemingly incapable of such sublime expression. Still, that’s opera for you."

    To which I replied: "While your characterisation of Nemorino as a berk is accurate, isn't it part of the point of the opera that even berks have feelings?"
  14. 20 Jun '13 12:07
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    I cannot argue against any of your points, but still feel we are saying the same thing almost, simply in different manner. I defer to you to so succinctly express your thoughts yet at the same time convey a deep truth of musical theater art.
    I suppose the reason I'm arguing is because I know a couple of people who love classical music in its instrumental form, but find opera less appealing because they think that the music never does more than underline the emotions on show. That's why I'm keen to emphasise that operatic music can also counterpoint and qualify those emotions. But I'm sure you're not disputing that in any case!
  15. 21 Jun '13 02:02
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    I suppose the reason I'm arguing is because I know a couple of people who love classical music in its instrumental form, but find opera less appealing because they think that the music never does more than underline the emotions on show. That's why I'm keen to emphasise that operatic music can also counterpoint and qualify those emotions. But I'm sure you're not disputing that in any case!
    Absolutely not. The counterbalance between instrumentation/orchestration and emotions is exactly what makes opera compelling, much more so than pure instrumental music. Indeed it takes a special kind of composer to meld the two into a coherent whole. No one did quite like Wagner, although I think of him as more of a special craftsman who subordinated the instrumental half of his operas into a backdrop, but forming a tapestry of interwoven music highlighting not only emotions, but inner complexities, dreads, premonitions, character flaws, character virtues, heroism, valor, treachery, lust, and endless other human traits. Wagner's special gift was not letting one realize the instrumental portion is somewhat subordinate, because it is also parallel. In other words it does not diminish the instrumental parts one bit, simply weaves them into the complex whole. You are right, I don't dispute your point. Your friends you allude to are right and wrong, in other words.