Is God Omniscient and Omnipotent? Can He see without fail everything that will happen in the future? Can He change anything He doesn't like? If He does did He know in advance He was going to do it? If He did He didn't really change anything did He? If He didn't can you still say He's Omnipotent?
Originally posted by SkorjAn approach....
Is God Omniscient and Omnipotent? Can He see without fail everything that will happen in the future? Can He change anything He doesn't like? If He does did He know in advance He was going to do it? If He did He didn't really change anything did He? If He didn't can you still say He's Omnipotent?
Is God Omniscient and Omnipotent?
Do you ask here if there is an entity that contains everything and that created everything that exists, existed and will exist?
If there is entity that is omnipotent, all that exist must be part of It, also time and space. This implies It supercedes time and space. Are we able to experience and convey to each other what is beyond time and space?
If so, the question arises how, and how to make that communicable.
If not, we can only hope to see reflections in time and space. Depending on which coordinates in time and space we are, the reflection will take different shapes.
Can He see without fail everything that will happen in the future?
With this question you presuppose that such an entity is time-dependent. That is not the case.
Can He change anything He doesn't like?
Disliking is a sign of imperfection, of being out of control? It is also a time-space experience. Subject and object have to be both part of the time-space before liking (wanting to keep things as they are) and disliking (wanting to change things) can arise.
If He didn't can you still say He's Omnipotent?
Can you answer these questions:
Does perfection include imperfection?
Does omnipotence include impotence?
fjord
God exists outside time and space (as fjord puts it). I suppose that, for Him, all our actions (past, present and future) really exist simultaneously (think 4D as in special relativity).
As to whether disliking is a sign of imperfection - I think not. God may very well see things he dislikes and not really do anything about it - simply because he does not wish to "interfere" with human free will (by, say, "possessing" a human being to do the right thing). He can certainly influence it, however.
we must ask for change, in numbers god will lisen to the individual but the mass will change the course of the future. in times of war usualy when things are going badly the churches are full, but in times of wealth, peace, and knowledge the prayes lack the pasion, we only know god thro the teachings of his prophets and jesus, so that is were we must look and read his given thoughts. wish i could help you more but i lack the wisdom you seek
Originally posted by fjordWhy does the claim that an entity is omnipotent imply that "all that exist must be part of It, also time and space. This implies It supercedes time and space." There is no logical contradiction in there being an omnipotent entity distinct from other entities. Further, there is no contradiction in there being an omnipotent being that exists in time. All that 'Omnipotent' means is 'Able to do anything that is logically possible'.
An approach....
[b]Is God Omniscient and Omnipotent?
Do you ask here if there is an entity that contains everything and that created everything that exists, existed and will exist?
If there is entity that is omnipotent, all that exist must be part of It, also time and space. This implies It supercedes time and space. Are we able to experience and ...[text shortened]... uestions:
Does perfection include imperfection?
Does omnipotence include impotence?
fjord
[/b]
Originally posted by lucifershammer
As to whether disliking is a sign of imperfection - I think not. God may very well see things he dislikes and not really do anything about it - simply because he does not wish to "interfere" with human free will (by, say, "possessing" a human being to do the right thing).
Interestingly, "God" knew the that he would experience this displeasure by creating the universe exactly as it is (This includes humans, free will, and all the stimuli that would affect each human's use of free will.)
So if "God" is a rational agent then it seems that either "God" positively values displeasure or "God" is some how constrained in his choice of all possible creations (that is he couldn't make one that gave him more pleasure).
The first option seems like a contradiction. A rational being derives utility from disutility?
The second violates omnipotence. Now perhaps one might argue that "God" is bounded only by logic and that it is logically impossible to create a world in which "God" receives less displeasure. If we take this line, then I have two questions.
1) What is heaven then exactly? This seems like a possible world that would give "God" more pleasure. Perhaps it is logically necessary to have a finite period of displeasure in order to gain an infinite period of pleasure? I don't see any reason to assume so.
2) We also must remember that, at least in the xtian tradition, God had the option not to create in the first place. Since he did create this world, we must assume that this world gives him more pleasure than not creating it at all. Now if he receives some displeasure from this world then I wonder did God really receive more displeasure from just hanging out in the void and chatting with his perfect selves (trinity)?
When I was young I went to a christian school for a while: real bible thumping born again type school.
They told us that God was watching us all the time and he knew all our thoughts and actions. They also said that the Devil was always trying to get us to sin. When you are going through puberty and having all those thoughts and feelings, you can get pretty paranoid about these two people watching your every move.
😀
Originally posted by telerion
What is heaven then exactly? This seems like a possible world that would give "God" more pleasure. Perhaps it is logically necessary to have a finite period of displeasure in order to gain an infinite period of pleasure? I don't see any reason to assume so.
Actually, heaven is a human state (of soul) rather than a world in which God lives. In other words, it's not a place - it's a situation.
So, I suppose God would never be perfectly pleased - the best possible world was one where He created beings who would love and worship him of their own free choice (rather than being automatons). This would necessarily mean that some of these beings could choose to hate and reject Him - which causes Him pain. But this pain is, perhaps, less than the pain of creating a world of doting robots.
2) We also must remember that, at least in the xtian tradition, God had the option not to create in the first place. Since he did create this world, we must assume that this world gives him more pleasure than not creating it at all. Now if he receives some displeasure from this world then I wonder did God really receive more displeasure from just hanging out in the void and chatting with his perfect selves (trinity)?
The opposite of pleasure is "lack of pleasure", not "displeasure". Re-read your posting with this substitution. 🙂
Originally posted by lucifershammerThe fact that God is displeased by some state of affairs entails nothing about God's perfection. God may be displeased by the necessity of some evil in the bringing about of greater good. If it is the case that good is maximized in the actual world, then it could be the case both that 1) some evil is necessary to maximize good, and 2) God is displeased by this unfortunate necessity. No contradiction here at all. Of course, if good really is maximized in the actual world, then that entails that any possible world just like this one except for the absence of some particular evil would thereby be worse off (ie, good would not be maximized in that possible world). This means that if I commit some evil act in the actual world, it would have been the case that the actual world would have been less good had I refrained from that act. Thus, every evil act essentially contributes to the maximization of the good. Pretty weird view, and in conflict with the libertarian notion of free will, but consistent all the same.
God exists outside time and space (as fjord puts it). I suppose that, for Him, all our actions (past, present and future) really exist simultaneously (think 4D as in special relativity).
As to whether disliking is a sign of imperf ...[text shortened]... ng to do the right thing). He can certainly influence it, however.
Originally posted by bbarrThanks for your reply. I think a few days about it before answering,
Why does the claim that an entity is omnipotent imply that "all that exist must be part of It, also time and space. This implies It supercedes time and space." There is no logical contradiction in there being an omnipotent entity distinct from other entities. Further, there is no contradiction in there being an omnipotent being that exists in time. All that 'Omnipotent' means is 'Able to do anything that is logically possible'.
fjord
Originally posted by bbarrYes, but is it logically possible to know the future with certainty and at the same time change it? Did you know you'd change it... yadda yadda yadda... big logical mess (at least in the temporal world to which or thinking is restricted.)
All that 'Omnipotent' means is 'Able to do anything that is logically possible'.
P.S. I'm happy to see that no one mistook my original post as an attempt to take a shot at anyone's religious beliefs. It was intended to spark just the sort of discussion it has. 🙂
Originally posted by bbarrOr God has fashioned events (somehow taking into account human free will) in such a fashion that even freely chosen evil maximises the overall good. 😉
The fact that God is displeased by some state of affairs entails nothing about God's perfection. God may be displeased by the necessity of some evil in the bringing about of greater good. If it is the case that good is maximized in the actual world, then it could be the case both that 1) some evil is necessary to maximize good, and 2) God is displeased by t ...[text shortened]... ird view, and in conflict with the libertarian notion of free will, but consistent all the same.
Originally posted by lucifershammerPerhaps God is attempting to do something about it by sending each and everyone of us!
God exists outside time and space (as fjord puts it). I suppose that, for Him, all our actions (past, present and future) really exist simultaneously (think 4D as in special relativity).
As to whether disliking is a sign of imperfection - I think not. God may very well see things he dislikes and not really do anything about it - simply because he d ...[text shortened]... ay, "possessing" a human being to do the right thing). He can certainly influence it, however.
-Ray.