Another Controversial Comment

The post that was quoted here has been removed

If a woman doesn't want men to notice her breasts, she can cover them with clothing. It is her choice. Men too. Many men and women don't mind sexual attention, and it does seem quite a normal animal reaction.

Wardrobe choice isn't random, and thoughtless, or purposeless. Sometimes the attention isn't what is desired, or isn't from the person desired, but risque dress is directed toward garnering attention.

This is in no way to make a judgement on the case you mentioned. How can anyone not present when it happened pass judgement on that? Lots of stupid stuff happens at hotel bars, and commonly men and women interested in sexual encounters meet at them.

In Australia a muslim cleric said much the same thing as the English politician except he used an analogy along the lines of if you put a piece of raw meat in your front garden and your neigbours dog gets through the fence and devours it, then you only have yourself to blame because a dog can't control itself.

In the furore that followed his comments, most were disgusted that he would parallel scantily clad women as raw meat and generalizing men as having the morals of dogs. The shift of blame from rapist to victim was denounced as further evidence of a male dominated culture in general and given much air as to the unacceptability of muslim culture within a modern western society in particular. ( the comments were made within the context of a gang of muslim youths convicted of pack raping a girl by dragging her into a train station toilet. She was not not scantily clad btw)

Unfortunately though I think spruce's comment of prudent action is largely ignored. There had been a wave of racially motivated rape in Sydney's south west during 2000-2002, where in spite of police warnings young women were still accepting rides and offers of a good time by young muslim men (particularly of Lebanese descent) in cars, only then to suffer hours of rape and abuse where their identity as white and Australian, were singled out as a primary reason for why they had to endure such trauma.

But were the police warnings followed? Not really. It took a police task force to identify and arrest the core elements behind this hateful episode in Sydney's history before the attacks stopped. While everyone has the right not to be violated and while justice should be served those whose rights have been forcibly denied, why would you increase your risk of danger just because you had rights?

Is there any statistical evidence to back up claims that scanty clothing was the prime reason for rapes occuring? That was not Sydney's experience. The comment sounds like a smokescreen for a much uglier reality, that most rapes are not random, and they do not necesarily stem from an addled male arousal overload in response to revealing clothing. I would argue that the type of clothing worn by the victim has a very low correlation to the incidence of being raped, and as such the comments are mostly deflective, diversionary and made purely for political reasons, no doubt focus grouped to resonate well with the perceived conventional wisdom held within that particular electorate.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

In a bar environment, you can expect most anything. I have been "hit on" by gay men while enjoying a sports event, and perhaps not recognizing the clientele of the establishment. How hard is it to politely refuse and advance?

Well endowed women don't have to expose the breasts to display them. Most men and women dress to enhance their attractiveness in some way, some overtly, others less directly. It isn't a matter of "asking for it".

Back in Massachusetts, where I grew up, for a long time women were not permitted in bars. If the establishment had a restaurant as part of its business, the woman could drink there, but never in the bar proper. Even after women were permitted in bars, it was largely assumed that "good" girls didn't frequent such places.

In places which are typically sexual hunting grounds, getting offended by innuendo, or direct compliments on sexuality seems ignorant of where you are. You can stretch the definitions of a workplace, but in reality have to consider the reality of what the place is. My workplace for most of my working life was on the street as a vendor. If I was offended by sexual advances of men, women, both or either, I'd have hardly ever had a non offended day.

Originally posted by normbenign
If a woman doesn't want men to notice her breasts, she can cover them with clothing. It is her choice. Men too. Many men and women don't mind sexual attention, and it does seem quite a normal animal reaction.

Wardrobe choice isn't random, and thoughtless, or purposeless. Sometimes the attention isn't what is desired, or isn't from the person desire ...[text shortened]... ens at hotel bars, and commonly men and women interested in sexual encounters meet at them.

I would argue that a woman cannot prevent men from noticing her breasts. She can do what she likes to make them less noticeable but "a cat can look at a king."

If a man then makes comments, then the consequences can only come from a societal reaction -- and they could be large especially for a politician.

But there should be absolutely no government or official reaction to free speech in a public place - as which a hotel bar certainly qualifies. Conducting one's business is public does not "privatize" said space.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Bars are typically places where banality and crudeness rule.

Why is a crude sexual comment from a man harassment, and the same type of remark from a woman to a man, isn't.

Originally posted by kmax87
In Australia a muslim cleric said much the same thing as the English politician except he used an analogy along the lines of if you put a piece of raw meat in your front garden and your neigbours dog gets through the fence and devours it, then you only have yourself to blame because a dog can't control itself.

In the furore that followed his comments, most ...[text shortened]... esonate well with the perceived conventional wisdom held within that particular electorate.

Woof woof.