Looking at the rhetoric, doesn’t it look like many countries are talking themselves into a corner?
From the outset of the Ukraine debacle I’ve already stated that Russia doesn’t have any scenario where this is going to play out well for them.
Indeed, is Putin stupid or something? Has he allowed himself to be provoked into a bankrupting war?
Are his advisors stupid or are they just yes-men?
And the West… pumping billions upon billions of dollars worth of weapons into this conflict. “Oh, we’re not participating, merely arming…”
Someone’s getting very rich off this business.
And Russia says if the arming doesn’t stop, that there will be consequences.
And the West sends in more and better arms… “Hey, we don’t take well to threats…”
Troop build ups on the borders.
A media frenzy making Russia the bad guy, even before the war started.
A lot of chest beating going on.
Madhatter semi-dictators.
Where exactly is this going to end?
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@shavixmir saidAre we stumbling towards WW3? A: Possible, but not likely. Even if Putin gives the launch order, there are several people between him and the guy who actually pushes the button, I'd like to think at least 1 or 2 of them will disobey orders to avoid WW3
Looking at the rhetoric, doesn’t it look like many countries are talking themselves into a corner?
From the outset of the Ukraine debacle I’ve already stated that Russia doesn’t have any scenario where this is going to play out well for them.
Indeed, is Putin stupid or something? Has he allowed himself to be provoked into a bankrupting war?
Are his advisors stupid or a ...[text shortened]...
A lot of chest beating going on.
Madhatter semi-dictators.
Where exactly is this going to end?
Indeed, is Putin stupid or something? Has he allowed himself to be provoked into a bankrupting war? A: Stupid, no I don't think he's stupid, but Putin is not a military strategist; he is a KGB thug who has surrounded himself with "yes men" who tell him only what he wants to hear, instead of what he needs to hear. We're seeing the result of that now.
“Oh, we’re not participating, merely arming…” Someone’s getting very rich off this business. A: You get 100% on this one. That quote is simply political double speak, and there are quite a few "someone's" getting rich off of this war. Stock prices of defense contractors in the US and Europe have been doing very well.
Where exactly is this going to end? A: I don't mind admitting that I don't know. Your concerns are legitimate Shav, this situation may turn much darker very fast. Let us hope people in power on both sides see the futility of all this, put their ego's aside, and take a less destructive path. I don't like this anymore than you do -
@shavixmir saidIn 2021, NATO declared its decision that it might deploy nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe.
Looking at the rhetoric, doesn’t it look like many countries are talking themselves into a corner?
From the outset of the Ukraine debacle I’ve already stated that Russia doesn’t have any scenario where this is going to play out well for them.
Indeed, is Putin stupid or something? Has he allowed himself to be provoked into a bankrupting war?
Are his advisors stupid or a ...[text shortened]...
A lot of chest beating going on.
Madhatter semi-dictators.
Where exactly is this going to end?
At the end of 2021, Russia made its security proposals to the US/NATO.
Russian main points were:
1) NATO's expansion at Russian borders is a strategic threat to Russia and must be stopped.
2) Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at its borders.
3) Ukraine should not join NATO.
Russia threatened to use "military/technical means" if the West ignores Russian security concerns.
The US/NATO completely ignored Russian proposals and demands. Western mainstream media and politicians even did not present Russian proposals correctly, only a heavily distorted interpretation was presented.
The West even sent more and more weapons to Ukraine.
Russia decided finally that starting a war was less dangerous to Moscow than not starting a war.
Finally, Russia started a military invasion of Ukraine. One of the reasons cited was to stop the expansion of NATO and to demilitarize Ukraine.
It also proves that the Russian threat they made was CREDIBLE.
Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that the Russian threat to attack those who send heavy modern weapons to Ukraine is credible too.
As a reaction, the West started to heavily support Ukraine with weapons and also with unprecedented economic and other blockades against Russia.
Russia has warned that sending powerful modern weapons to Ukraine will be regarded as starting a war with Russia.
However, the Western countries have sent more and more powerful and modern weapons to Ukraine.
The blockade is led by the UK and the US. Both of them are not in continental Europe. The US is on the other side of the ocean. The UK is on the other side of the sea. It also disconnected itself from the EU economic system earlier (Brexit). The UK and the US are leading in escalating this conflict, at the same time, both economically and militarily they suffer the least.
Thus, I conclude that the US, with the help of the UK, tries to weaken Russia as much as possible and even tries to trigger the Third World War, starting in continental Europe.
Sweden and Finland joining NATO do not make the situation better. It escalates the tensions as Finland is close enough to Russian strategic military objects, just like Ukraine.
I conclude that we are moving towards WW3 and the leading forces who are triggering it are the US and the UK.
@shavixmir said"And Russia says if the arming doesn’t stop, that there will be consequences."
Looking at the rhetoric, doesn’t it look like many countries are talking themselves into a corner?
From the outset of the Ukraine debacle I’ve already stated that Russia doesn’t have any scenario where this is going to play out well for them.
Indeed, is Putin stupid or something? Has he allowed himself to be provoked into a bankrupting war?
Are his advisors stupid or a ...[text shortened]...
A lot of chest beating going on.
Madhatter semi-dictators.
Where exactly is this going to end?
What consequences. Russia can barely sustain a "special operation" in Ukraine. Do you think they think they can take on the world? China supports them now because it's minimal but do you think they want a nuclear war?
At most you can argue Putin is unhinged and dying and he wants to take the world with him but even so, pressing the button involves a fukton of additional steps.
Chill.
@eintaluj saidHow many times must it be explained to you and other would be intellectuals? Ad Hominem means you want to argue your position by attacking the character/credibility of your opponent. This was just plain ol' throwing insults. As in "I can't be bothered listing all the points you have made and how they are wrong, i am just going to remind you of your stupidity and ignore you"
It is Argumentum Ad Hominem. You did not say anything at all about my arguments. Purely psychological move you made.
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@eintaluj saidI agree with some of this, but your argument that Russia's actions are justified because "Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at its borders" is pretty weak since nuclear warheads can be launched at Russia just as easily from the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as they can from Ukraine. If Russia withdraws its military forces and stops killing innocent Ukrainians, I'm sure the west would be willing to pull back its nukes at an acceptable distance from the border of Russia, but that's not going to happen while Russian tank shells, missiles and bombs are raining down on Ukrainian hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings.
In 2021, NATO declared its decision that it might deploy nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe.
At the end of 2021, Russia made its security proposals to the US/NATO.
Russian main points were:
1) NATO's expansion at Russian borders is a strategic threat to Russia and must be stopped.
2) Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at i ...[text shortened]... e that we are moving towards WW3 and the leading forces who are triggering it are the US and the UK.
@mchill saidThe US was ready to go to war over missiles in Cuba 60 years ago even though nuclear warheads could be launched at it from further away.
I agree with some of this, but your argument that Russia's actions are justified because "Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at its borders" is pretty weak since nuclear warheads can be launched at Russia just as easily from the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as they can from Ukraine. If Russia withdraws its military forces and stops killi ...[text shortened]... hells, missiles and bombs are raining down on Ukrainian hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings.
At this point, NATO seems to be committed to pushing more troops and weapons right up to the Russian border no matter what Russia does now.
@zahlanzi saidBut that person did directly attack the credibility of my person in order to ridicule my argument.
How many times must it be explained to you and other would be intellectuals? Ad Hominem means you want to argue your position by attacking the character/credibility of your opponent. This was just plain ol' throwing insults. As in "I can't be bothered listing all the points you have made and how they are wrong, i am just going to remind you of your stupidity and ignore you"
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@no1marauder saidAt this point, NATO seems to be committed to pushing more troops and weapons right up to the Russian border no matter what Russia does now.
The US was ready to go to war over missiles in Cuba 60 years ago even though nuclear warheads could be launched at it from further away.
At this point, NATO seems to be committed to pushing more troops and weapons right up to the Russian border no matter what Russia does now.
Maybe and maybe not. I understand neither side is innocent here, but the west is not going to agree to anything as long as Russia continues its invasion of an independent nation and randomly slaughters innocent civilians under the pretense of national security.
@mchill said"I agree with some of this, but your argument that Russia's actions are justified because 'Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at its borders'..."
I agree with some of this, but your argument that Russia's actions are justified because "Russia will not tolerate deploying nuclear warheads and strategic missiles at its borders" is pretty weak since nuclear warheads can be launched at Russia just as easily from the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as they can from Ukraine. If Russia withdraws its military forces and stops killi ...[text shortened]... hells, missiles and bombs are raining down on Ukrainian hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings.
I have not reached the stage of JUSTIFYING Russian decisions. I am merely EXPLAINING to you why the US and NATO actions probably trigger WW3. It is Russia who has to finally decide whether the strategic situation is such that it is better to invade Ukraine. Granted. But the West intentionally created such a situation when the probability will be much higher than normal that Russia will start a war. And this strategy has continued so far.
@mchill saidWell how self-righteous of the West; it's not like it would ever invade independent nations or slaughter civilians.
At this point, NATO seems to be committed to pushing more troops and weapons right up to the Russian border no matter what Russia does now.
Maybe and maybe not. I understand neither side is innocent here, but the west is not going to agree to anything as long as Russia continues its invasion of an independent nation and randomly slaughters innocent civilians under the pretense of national security.
The head of NATO already announced that it intends to deploy what he termed sufficient forces in Russian bordering States to defeat any invasion. This presumably means hundreds of thousands of troops equipped with the most lethal weapons in areas where NATO deployed: 1) Zero troops and weapons before 2014: and 2) Token, "trip wire" forces since.
@no1marauder saidI agree that the situation at the end of 2021 was similar to that of the Cuban crisis. But the Soviet Union throw back and the US did not start to bomb Cuba.
The US was ready to go to war over missiles in Cuba 60 years ago even though nuclear warheads could be launched at it from further away.
At this point, NATO seems to be committed to pushing more troops and weapons right up to the Russian border no matter what Russia does now.