Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:08
    Here is an intriguing article about the life of Bernie Sanders.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/young-bernie-sanders-liberty-union-vermont
  2. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:094 edits
    Who here agrees with this quote from Bernie?

    "The incident only hardened Sanders' skepticism of corporate power. Television, Sanders wrote in 1979, was a particularly pernicious evil, rooted in "the well-tested Hitlerian principle that people should be treated as morons and bombarded over and over again with the same simple phrases and ideas." Television stations were "attempting to brainwash people into submission and helplessness"

    Is corporate America equivalent to Nazism? Could they be purified by having government take them over?
  3. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:16
    "That's what distinguished [Sanders] from leftists who were more invested in the symbolism than in the outcome," Sugarman says. "He read Marx, he understood Marx's critique of capitalism—but he also understood Marx doesn't give you too many prescriptions of how society should go forward."

    This in an interesting point. Marx did not really lay out a ground work on how to make his political system work. Has Bernie figured it out?
  4. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:372 edits
    Here is another interesting quote.

    "Sanders suggested that dwelling on local issues was perhaps counterproductive, because it distracted activists from the real root of the problem—Washington. Sanders started a small monthly zine to promote the Liberty Union's agenda. It was called Movement."

    Is local politics as useless as Sanders seems to think it is? If the federal politics continually infringe upon local politics, then the answer would have to be a resounding yes.
  5. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:39
    "Sanders was struggling to square his revolutionary zeal with his overwhelming rejection at the polls—and this was reflected in a regular ritual. Many mornings, Sanders would greet his roommate with a simple statement: "We're not crazy."

    It's interesting how far the socialist movement has come in the US in such a short time. People who were once considered loons are now running the government.
  6. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 14:50
    Originally posted by whodey
    "That's what distinguished [Sanders] from leftists who were more invested in the symbolism than in the outcome," Sugarman says. "He read Marx, he understood Marx's critique of capitalism—but he also understood Marx doesn't give you too many prescriptions of how society should go forward."

    This in an interesting point. Marx did not really lay out a ground work on how to make his political system work. Has Bernie figured it out?
    He wants to make the USA more like Denmark and Sweden. That is what he has stated. The question is are we better off like the Scandinavian countries?
  7. Germany
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    01 Feb '16 15:441 edit
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    He wants to make the USA more like Denmark and Sweden. That is what he has stated. The question is are we better off like the Scandinavian countries?
    The answer to the question is "yes." That is, if you want a stronger economy, accessible, high-quality education and health care, excellent infrastructure and public transport, higher life expectancy, lower poverty, lower income inequality, lower gender inequality, etc. etc. etc.
  8. Standard memberDeepThought
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    01 Feb '16 16:08
    Originally posted by whodey
    "That's what distinguished [Sanders] from leftists who were more invested in the symbolism than in the outcome," Sugarman says. "He read Marx, he understood Marx's critique of capitalism—but he also understood Marx doesn't give you too many prescriptions of how society should go forward."

    This in an interesting point. Marx did not really lay out a ground work on how to make his political system work. Has Bernie figured it out?
    Marx wrote a critique of Capitalism, the only place he wrote anything about the future Socialist society was in the Manifesto of the Communist Party which was fairly vague. He seems to have thought that the society would self-organise.
  9. Joined
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    01 Feb '16 16:42
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    He wants to make the USA more like Denmark and Sweden. That is what he has stated. The question is are we better off like the Scandinavian countries?
    Denmark is the size of a US state so their argument should be states should adopt their health care system, like MA did.

    Instead, they wish to compare apples and oranges by comparing the Leviathan US federal government to one of those tiny European countries.
  10. Germany
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    01 Feb '16 16:45
    Originally posted by whodey
    Denmark is the size of a US state so their argument should be states should adopt their health care system, like MA did.

    Instead, they wish to compare apples and oranges by comparing the Leviathan US federal government to one of those tiny European countries.
    Rock solid logic right there, whodey. Do you think California should not implement any policies because it is a lot bigger than Delaware?
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    01 Feb '16 17:06
    Originally posted by whodey
    Here is another interesting quote.

    "Sanders suggested that dwelling on local issues was perhaps counterproductive, because it distracted activists from the real root of the problem—Washington. Sanders started a small monthly zine to promote the Liberty Union's agenda. It was called Movement."

    Is local politics as useless as Sanders seems to think it is? ...[text shortened]... ics continually infringe upon local politics, then the answer would have to be a resounding yes.
    If you had tried to read the article as a unitary whole rather than trying to pick out parts out of context to try to smear Bernie, you'd realize he had abandoned any such doubts by the time he became Mayor of Burlington:

    He ran for mayor of Burlington in 1981 as an independent, and he crafted a hyperlocal platform that cut across party lines—he opposed a waterfront condominium project, supported preserving a local hill for sledding, pushed to rein in utility companies, and urged bringing a minor league baseball team to town. His kitchen-table focus was underscored by his most popular campaign swag—free paper grocery bags with his name on them. Sanders was still, at heart, the neurotic socialist who picked fights with Diamondstone over Sigmund Freud's controversial protégé Wilhelm Reich, but he recognized that voters in Burlington wanted to hear what he thought about Burlington.

    He won by 10 votes out of 8,650 cast, knocking off the longtime Democratic incumbent Gordon Paquette. After a decade on the outside, Bernie Sanders finally had a foot in the door—and a steady job. "It's so strange, just having money," he told the Associated Press at the time.

    In the mayor's office, and later in the halls of Congress as a representative and then a senator, Sanders has followed a similar course to the one that got him to Washington. He's unafraid to raise hell about the corporate forces he fears are driving America into the ground—replace "Rockefeller" with "Koch" and his Liberty Union speeches don't sound dated—but always careful to keep Vermont in his sights. At times, Sanders has even showed a willingness to compromise that's disappointed longtime ideological allies. He has supported the F-35, Lockheed Martin's problem-plagued fighter jet that has led to hundreds of billions of dollars in cost overruns; Burlington's international airport was chosen as one of the homes for the planes. "He became what we call up here a 'Vermont Exceptionalist,'" Guma says, of the candidate's pragmatic streak.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/young-bernie-sanders-liberty-union-vermont

    How does his mid-1970s position against compulsory education square with your ranting about him wanting to abolish freedom and have the government control everything?
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    01 Feb '16 17:151 edit
    The "Why Socialism?" article by Einstein that Bernie references in the Mother Jones piece is quite good. http://www.fmf.uni-lj.si/storage/35099/Einstein%20on%20Why%20Socialism.pdf?access=28753d2d6538353acbfa1b728a8ba5fd

    Perhaps it deserves a separate thread.

    This part seems relevant to the tendentious arguments of Wajoma:

    It is "society" which provides man with food,
    clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms
    of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life
    is made possible through the labor and the
    accomplishments of the many millions past and present
    who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”
  13. The Catbird's Seat
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    01 Feb '16 17:34
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    He wants to make the USA more like Denmark and Sweden. That is what he has stated. The question is are we better off like the Scandinavian countries?
    A more meaningful question is whether the Scandinavian models would work in a much larger, more diverse society or nation. Denmark is about half the size of Vermont.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    01 Feb '16 17:37
    Originally posted by normbenign
    A more meaningful question is whether the Scandinavian models would work in a much larger, more diverse society or nation. Denmark is about half the size of Vermont.
    Give a logical reason why they wouldn't.
  15. The Catbird's Seat
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    01 Feb '16 17:43
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The "Why Socialism?" article by Einstein that Bernie references in the Mother Jones piece is quite good. http://www.fmf.uni-lj.si/storage/35099/Einstein%20on%20Why%20Socialism.pdf?access=28753d2d6538353acbfa1b728a8ba5fd

    Perhaps it deserves a separate thread.

    This part seems relevant to the tendentious arguments of Wajoma:

    It is "society" which ...[text shortened]... ments of the many millions past and present
    who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”
    The accomplishments of mankind over centuries may be credited to "society", but by and large these were individual accomplishments, even when groups of men got together to write a Constitution, or Declaration of Independence. Minus strong individuals, these things never would have been done.
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