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Debates Forum

  1. The Catbird's Seat
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    10 Feb '16 03:22
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    NZ is pretty much cashless.
    Everyone carries an EFTPOS card which can be used at even the smallest of retail outlets.
    Even visiting tradesmen just swipe your card through their mobile EFTPOS machines.
    I never carry cash on me and only have up to $10 in car for parking meters.
    It is a double edged sword. Cash is convenient and private. Use of any substitute makes your transaction public. I like privacy.
  2. Germany
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    10 Feb '16 20:38
    Originally posted by normbenign
    It is a double edged sword. Cash is convenient and private. Use of any substitute makes your transaction public. I like privacy.
    You really overstate your importance if you think anyone gives a damn about what you are buying.
  3. The Catbird's Seat
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    10 Feb '16 20:45
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    You really overstate your importance if you think anyone gives a damn about what you are buying.
    I can't believe that level of ignorance! Big business spends millions of dollars collecting data on what people buy and why. The Goobermint also is pretty nosy about out income and spending habits. Why would I voluntarily cooperate with either entity?
  4. Germany
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    10 Feb '16 20:48
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I can't believe that level of ignorance! Big business spends millions of dollars collecting data on what people buy and why. The Goobermint also is pretty nosy about out income and spending habits. Why would I voluntarily cooperate with either entity?
    Big Business has no access to your bank statements or spending habits unless you tell them about it.

    No government has ever been "nosy" about my income and spending habits as long as I paid my taxes.
  5. Joined
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    11 Feb '16 11:37
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Big Business has no access to your bank statements or spending habits unless you tell them about it.

    No government has ever been "nosy" about my income and spending habits as long as I paid my taxes.
    How do you know?
  6. Cape Town
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    11 Feb '16 12:071 edit
    Uses for cash:
    1. Hiding transactions in order to avoid tax obligations.
    2. Hiding transactions for the purpose of purchasing illegal substances.
    3. Hiding transactions related to other illegal activities.
    4. Hiding transactions from your spouse.
    5. Small transactions with people that do not have bank accounts or when using electronic means would be inconvenient. (think: pocket money for kids, giving change to beggars and some instances of tipping)
    6. Showing off to your friends how rich you are by flashing large bills at them.
    7. Hoarding your wealth in cash so as to avoid deflation.

    The article in the OP is only concerned about 7 and suggests that being prevented from hoarding your wealth in deflation proof hard cash is a scary prospect.
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
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    11 Feb '16 16:03
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Uses for cash:
    1. Hiding transactions in order to avoid tax obligations.
    2. Hiding transactions for the purpose of purchasing illegal substances.
    3. Hiding transactions related to other illegal activities.
    4. Hiding transactions from your spouse.
    5. Small transactions with people that do not have bank accounts or when using electronic means would be ...[text shortened]... that being prevented from hoarding your wealth in deflation proof hard cash is a scary prospect.
    I don't agree that cash is necessary for hiding transactions. Bitcoin is pretty notorious for allowing criminal enterprises to hide money laundering operations. If anything cash is a nuisance to them because of the sheer volume of material they have to carry around. Although because there is a 500 eurodollar note it's rather easier to do in Euros than in US dollars and virtually impossible in Sterling as the highest denomination note is £50 (and everyone is suspicious of them). If anything there is more scope for fraud with electronic currency.

    Removing cash will not help prevent illegal transactions, they'll simply find ways of making transactions anonymous such as using an alternative exchange commodity (gold is always acceptable).

    A major reason for keeping cash is that it has an anti-inflationary effect. Further, a country without physical coinage would be vulnerable to a cyber attack on its electronic exchange systems and rapidly be left on its knees. I don't think that they'll be abolishing coinage any time soon.
  8. Cape Town
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    11 Feb '16 17:37
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I don't agree that cash is necessary for hiding transactions.
    To be clear, I never suggested otherwise.

    If anything there is more scope for fraud with electronic currency.
    Well, given that the largest fraud tends to be in the Banks and entirely in electronic form, I think that goes without saying. The 2008 crisis and its aftermath involved large scale fraud of various kinds.

    Removing cash will not help prevent illegal transactions, they'll simply find ways of making transactions anonymous such as using an alternative exchange commodity (gold is always acceptable).
    Swiss bank accounts were very popular at one time.

    A major reason for keeping cash is that it has an anti-inflationary effect.
    I assume you mean a reason for a country keeping it around and not on an individual basis. For individuals, having cash can result in losses due to inflation (I have lived through serious inflation) and printing cash can be one way to cause inflation.

    Further, a country without physical coinage would be vulnerable to a cyber attack on its electronic exchange systems and rapidly be left on its knees.
    That, I do not buy. Cyber attack to the point of destroying banks and electronic payments would bring almost any country to its knees. Very few countries still have enough printed currency available so support all day to day transactions. And many institutions have lost the capabilities to deal with it.

    I am always amazed at how Zimbabweans seemed to survive for a long time with a virtually useless currency.
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
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    11 Feb '16 17:46
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    To be clear, I never suggested otherwise.

    [b]If anything there is more scope for fraud with electronic currency.

    Well, given that the largest fraud tends to be in the Banks and entirely in electronic form, I think that goes without saying. The 2008 crisis and its aftermath involved large scale fraud of various kinds.

    Removing cash will not h ...[text shortened]... s amazed at how Zimbabweans seemed to survive for a long time with a virtually useless currency.
    I meant coinage, not notes. The coins have a metal value slightly below their nominal value.
  10. Cape Town
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    11 Feb '16 18:421 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I meant coinage, not notes. The coins have a metal value slightly below their nominal value.
    Yes, but that metal value is of no real importance economically. In some cases the metal value exceeds the coinage value and the coins go out of circulation rapidly as people melt them down. This happened in Zambia.
    If you are saying that an economic collapse due to a failed banking system would be alleviated because of the metal value of coins then you are talking nonsense. All the coinage in the world is simply not worth all that much.
  11. Zugzwang
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    11 Feb '16 18:50
    Originally posted by normbenign to KazetNagorra
    I can't believe that level of ignorance! Big business spends millions of dollars collecting data on what people buy and why. The Goobermint also is pretty nosy about out income and spending habits. Why would I voluntarily cooperate with either entity?
    "I can't believe that level of ignorance!"
    --Normbenign

    Why does Normbenign like to repeat what other writers usually say about himself?
  12. The Catbird's Seat
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    11 Feb '16 23:471 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    To be clear, I never suggested otherwise.

    [b]If anything there is more scope for fraud with electronic currency.

    Well, given that the largest fraud tends to be in the Banks and entirely in electronic form, I think that goes without saying. The 2008 crisis and its aftermath involved large scale fraud of various kinds.

    Removing cash will not h ...[text shortened]... s amazed at how Zimbabweans seemed to survive for a long time with a virtually useless currency.
    There is a single reason for elimination of cash. CONTROL!

    Even the cash you still have is controlled, and manipulated. Central banks "adjust" what your currency is actually worth. With a cashless society, any and all reality goes poof, and government dictates what the purchasing power of whatever money substitute they authorize is.
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    12 Feb '16 03:34
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I can't believe that level of ignorance! Big business spends millions of dollars collecting data on what people buy and why. The Goobermint also is pretty nosy about out income and spending habits. Why would I voluntarily cooperate with either entity?
    Co-operating with the government and co-operating with companies wishing to please you.

    Madness!!!
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    12 Feb '16 03:35
    Originally posted by normbenign
    There is a single reason for elimination of cash. CONTROL!

    Even the cash you still have is controlled, and manipulated. Central banks "adjust" what your currency is actually worth. With a cashless society, any and all reality goes poof, and government dictates what the purchasing power of whatever money substitute they authorize is.
    You don't know anything about economics.
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    12 Feb '16 03:38
    Originally posted by normbenign
    It is a double edged sword. Cash is convenient and private.
    I don't find cash convenient or private.
    Why would I want to carry wads of notes with me?
    Why would I want to worry about who is looking over my shoulder when I draw out cash from an ATM?

    Cash is so last century!
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