Collective rights

Originally posted by normbenign
It was done by a US President widely viewed as a "Progressive", FDR. Hardly progressive action, in my book.

I've never seen the internment of Japanese Americans described as "progressive". In fact I've probably come across more acceptance or approval of it among more conservative oriented people, 'ah well, war is war' etc., and principled objection to it from the sort of people whodey has contempt for.

Is whodey's use of "progressive" to describe those [like me] who opposed NDAA type powers - before and after they were codified - widely held to be a correct use of the term in political discourse in the U.S.?

What about cancelling [or wanting to cancel] an American's U.S. citizenship in a way that contravenes the 14th Amendment: is that a "progressive" instinct in play or a conservative one?

Originally posted by FMF
I've never seen the internment of Japanese Americans described as "progressive". In fact I've probably come across more acceptance or approval of it among more conservative oriented people, 'ah well, war is war' etc., and principled objection to it from the sort of people whodey has contempt for.

Is whodey's use of "progressive" to describe those [like me] w ...[text shortened]... the 14th Amendment: is that a "progressive" instinct in play or a conservative one?

Progressive for me are those who slowly take our freedoms away in favor of a collecitivist utopia. Each year we inch little by little towards a police state of sorts.

Sometimes I feel that progressives could care less about freedom, unless it is the freedom to have sex and kill their offspring or to take drugs. Usually they seem to be drones of sorts, much like many Obama supporters on this site.

Having said that, I'll give credit where credit is due. At least you question Obama and don't agree with everything he does, but from what I have gathered you agree with most things. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by normbenign
It was done by a US President widely viewed as a "Progressive", FDR. Hardly progressive action, in my book. Evil and unnecessary, as pure a violation of civil rights as we have in the modern era. Probably worse than the original institution of slavery in the US, given the time and place.

Perhaps I should have used the word "collectivist" or "statist" instead of "progressive". For me, they are all one in the same, but I can understand how the lingo throws people.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps I should have used the word "collectivist" or "statist" instead of "progressive". For me, they are all one in the same, but I can understand how the lingo throws people.

What label would you attach to someone who condemns the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2?

Originally posted by whodey
Progressive for me are those who slowly take our freedoms away in favor of a collecitivist utopia. Each year we inch little by little towards a police state of sorts. [...] Having said that, I'll give credit where credit is due. At least you question Obama and don't agree with everything he does, but from what I have gathered you agree with most things. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

What have I advocated on this forum in the last 7 years that amounts to "slowly taking [your] freedoms away in favor of a collecitivist utopia" and what proposals have I made to "inch [the U.S.] little by little towards a police state"? Like I said, You seem so wrapped up in your own blether involving facile generalizations and malleable meaningless catch all labels, you can't even differentiate between the different people you talk to on this message board.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps I should have used the word "collectivist" or "statist" instead of "progressive". For me, they are all one in the same, but I can understand how the lingo throws people.

One of the problems we have is the common use of labels to demonize, when often the labels are antiquated or ambiguous. I prefer statist, or collectivist because that more often is inclusive of the worst elements of both major parties.

Originally posted by FMF
I've never seen the internment of Japanese Americans described as "progressive". In fact I've probably come across more acceptance or approval of it among more conservative oriented people, 'ah well, war is war' etc., and principled objection to it from the sort of people whodey has contempt for.

Is whodey's use of "progressive" to describe those [like me] w ...[text shortened]... the 14th Amendment: is that a "progressive" instinct in play or a conservative one?

Agreed it wasn't yet it gets labeled because of who did it. I'm sure you don't look at American imperialism as progressive, or racial determinism as progressive, but each was done under that banner a hundred years ago.

Progressive is one of those words which sounds positive. Who can be opposed to progress? Like today's liberalism, is not the liberalism of the 19th century. Today's liberalism is steeped in controls, rather than standing for liberty.

Originally posted by whodey
In this era of collectivism of Obama and company, what exactly are our collective rights? I know what my individual rights are that are covered by the Bill of Rights, but what are my collective rights?

It seems to me that there are no collective rights, much in the same sense that corporations should not be treated like individuals. What concerns me thou ...[text shortened]... collectivism, while watching our individual rights vanish in the process. What are we becoming?

We're becoming what we've always been, American's. Why don't you stop trying to paint President Obama as a socialist, and go and work on your rook vs minor piece end games or something.

Originally posted by FMF
What have I advocated on this forum in the last 7 years that amounts to "slowly taking [your] freedoms away in favor of a collecitivist utopia" and what proposals have I made to "inch [the U.S.] little by little towards a police state"? Like I said, You seem so wrapped up in your own blether involving facile generalizations and malleable meaningless catch all la ...[text shortened]... ou can't even differentiate between the different people you talk to on this message board.

What have you advocated? For starters, you seem to have supported Obamacare.

My guess is that you don't veiw this as taking freedom away from the populace. However, what rights do we really have to medical care? Medicare turns more people down for procedures than private insurance in the US. What it will come down to is what the government wants to pay and not what rights we actually have. In addition, it is mandatory now to buy health coverage from corporate America, which essentially lets corporations set our tax rates for health care. Not only are Americans no longer free to not buy health care, they are not subject to the whims of corporate America.

Originally posted by bill718
We're becoming what we've always been, American's. Why don't you stop trying to paint President Obama as a socialist, and go and work on your rook vs minor piece end games or something.

I could care less about Obama. Obama is just an empty suit is a system gone horribly awry. My guess is that in 20 years, the nation will have been moving "forward" all those years to the point where Obama will look like a conservative.

Originally posted by whodey
What have you advocated? For starters, you seem to have supported Obamacare.

I have argued that "Obamacare" is a bodge and a fudge. I've stated this several times in posts addressed directly to you. Do you even read people's posts?

When did I advocate a police state?

As for the things that normbenign and I put to you further up this page and on the previous page, you're just going to blank them out? 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
I have argued that "Obamacare" is a bodge and a fudge. I've stated this several times in posts addressed directly to you. Do you even read people's posts?

When did I advocate a police state?

As for the things that normbenign and I put to you further up this page and on the previous page, you're just going to blank them out? 🙂

I take back my post.

Pretty much everyone hates Obamacare. Collectivists hate it because it is not a single payer system and conservatives hate it because it is increasing the size and scope of a centralized government.

My guess is that you fall in the collectivist crowd, or have you sprung a new worldview FMF?

As for a police state, no one advocates a police state FMF. Who in their right mind would? People just tend to head in that direction and it happens.

What questions have I not answered FMF?

Originally posted by whodey
My guess is that you fall in the collectivist crowd, or have you sprung a new worldview FMF?

When did I advocate a police state?

Your edit: As for a police state, no one advocates a police state FMF. Who in their right mind would? People just tend to head in that direction and it happens.

When did I advocate anything that "heads in the direction of a police state"?

Originally posted by whodey
What questions have I not answered FMF?

I condemned the powers in question long before you did and continue to condemn them now that they have been codified. On this issue, with what justification do you attempt to sneer at anyone who has taken my stance [as opposed to your johnny-come-lately stance] with your cardboard-cutout "collectivist" label?

If you can quote a post of mine supporting the ban on large sodas then that would be interesting.

There have been calls for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be tried as an "enemy combatant" and not in a civilian court. Do you see these calls as coming from "collectivists"?

I thought you were against removing due process?

When did you start objecting to the internment of Japanese Americans during WW2? Did you start objecting to it in 2008 like this other stuff?

What label would you attach to someone who condemns the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2?

What have I advocated on this forum in the last 7 years that amounts to "slowly taking [your] freedoms away in favor of a collecitivist utopia" and what proposals have I made to "inch [the U.S.] little by little towards a police state"?

Originally posted by FMF
I condemned the powers in question long before you did and continue to condemn them now that they have been codified. On this issue, with what justification do you attempt to sneer at anyone who has taken my stance [as opposed to your johnny-come-lately stance] with your cardboard-cutout "collectivist" label?

If you can quote a post of mine supporting the ban ...[text shortened]... at proposals have I made to "inch [the U.S.] little by little towards a police state"?

Yes or no. Do you advocate a single payer system for health care?