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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    28 May '11 11:57
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43202283/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

    The geopolitical changes in the Middle East have their first effect on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Mubarak had agreed to a joint blockade of Gaza to punish the Gazans for having the temerity to vote for Hamas, but with his ouster it seems certain that Egypt will be less willing to simply follow the directions of the US in these types of matters.

    What effect will this crack in the Israeli-US strategy towards Hamas have on the situation in the Middle East and the prospects (which seem pretty poor right now based on Bibi's speech) for an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal?
  2. 28 May '11 13:40 / 1 edit
    Who cares about making peace with Israel. It is better for Gazans to fight for their rights to trade with other countries and come and go as they please. Collateral punishment of Israelis has to stop, whatever the case, if it be using dictators to achieve their punishments onto the innocent or going on homicidal killing rampages of children.

    The answer for Gazans isnt the ideology of Israelis who want to trap them to being stuck in the same day but advancing forward, yet the Israelis do not care for the Gazans.... only themselves. With the help of Egypt and others from various places around the world peace will more likely be achieved, more then anything Israel or US for that matter has to offer. Hamas while they are cagged in a prison as that is the representation of the imprisoned people uner democracy. But when such a time arrives that Israeli seiges are broken and with that advancement they will vote in a more moderate government like Fatah and further down the track more moderate again but only when they are capable to advance which under Israeli oppression is not possible.
  3. 28 May '11 14:19
    This is next on my countries list...

    NZ network to campaign for international Gaza flotilla26

    May

    Kia Ora Gaza media release

    26 May 2011

    “Kia Ora Gaza will soon be launching a campaign for Freedom Flotilla 2, an international fleet due to sail to Gaza in late June to break Israel’s illegal siege of the Palestinian coastal enclave,” said Grant Morgan, co-organiser of New Zealand’s Gaza support network.

    “More details will be announced over coming days about Kia Ora Gaza’s involvement with this European-driven civil society initiative.”

    Kia Ora Gaza was set up in response to Israel’s deadly attack on Gaza aid ship Mavi Marmara in May 2010, when nine civil society volunteers were shot to death in a violent act of state piracy.

    Later in 2010, Kia Ora Gaza raised NZ$100,000 to send a six-person team on an international land convoy to Gaza led by UK charity Viva Palestina. NZ$7 million of medical aid and other humanitarian supplies were successfully delivered to Gaza via Egypt’s land crossing after a tense 10-day standoff with the now-deposed regime in Cairo.

    In March 2010, United Nations secretary-general Ban-Ki Moon said the blockade of Gaza causes “unacceptable suffering” to its residents, while the UN Human Rights Council has repeatedly called for the Israeli siege to be lifted.

    “Yet Gaza’s 1.5 million Palestinians are still suffering from Israel’s cruel and criminal siege, which includes a ferocious sea blockade,” said Mr Morgan. “Every year, dozens of Gazan fishermen are killed and wounded by Israeli warships for putting a net in the sea to support their families.”
  4. 28 May '11 16:39
    I have no problem with Egypt opening the border, especially to allow Palestinian refugees who are caught in between Hamas crazies and disproportionate Israeli attacks on them.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    29 May '11 02:01
    Just imagine...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0F_6plYyTM
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 May '11 02:44
    Originally posted by Kostenuik
    This is next on my countries list...

    NZ network to campaign for international Gaza flotilla26

    May

    Kia Ora Gaza media release

    26 May 2011

    “Kia Ora Gaza will soon be launching a campaign for Freedom Flotilla 2, an international fleet due to sail to Gaza in late June to break Israel’s illegal siege of the Palestinian coastal enclave,” said Gr ...[text shortened]... killed and wounded by Israeli warships for putting a net in the sea to support their families.”
    Why do you need a flotilla to break the blockade if the border is open???

  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    29 May '11 02:55
    Originally posted by sh76
    Why do you need a flotilla to break the blockade if the border is open???

    LOL
  8. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    29 May '11 14:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    Why do you need a flotilla to break the blockade if the border is open???

    Cheap.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 May '11 14:21
    Originally posted by sh76
    Why do you need a flotilla to break the blockade if the border is open???

    Why does the US have ports when we could just trade overland with Canada and Mexico?
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 May '11 17:42
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Why does the US have ports when we could just trade overland with Canada and Mexico?
    Is it really necessary to risk life and limb to run a blockade to avoid landing in the Sinai and trucking the goods into Gaza?
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 May '11 17:57
    Originally posted by sh76
    Is it really necessary to risk life and limb to run a blockade to avoid landing in the Sinai and trucking the goods into Gaza?
    Rafah is not a cargo crossing; Israel controls all of those. Even if small amounts of materials could be trucked in through Rafah, an end to the blockade is needed to insure that necessary materials are imported into Gaza and exports allowed out. Israel severely restricts both to the detriment of Gaza's people (in violation of IL).

    BTW, your post really didn't address my question. I'm sure the US would find the idea of a blockade of their territory objectionable even if ships could land in Newfoundland and truck goods into upstate New York.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 May '11 00:57 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Rafah is not a cargo crossing; Israel controls all of those. Even if small amounts of materials could be trucked in through Rafah, an end to the blockade is needed to insure that necessary materials are imported into Gaza and exports allowed out. Israel severely restricts both to the detriment of Gaza's people (in violation of IL).

    BTW, objectionable even if ships could land in Newfoundland and truck goods into upstate New York.
    Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

    The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its legality until the cows come home, but all the talk about Gaza being a "prison" and so forth becomes irrelevant.

    Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."
  13. 30 May '11 04:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

    The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its le forth becomes irrelevant.

    Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."
    So you believe it is allright to collaterally punish all Gazan's for the crimes of a few. No wonder you get rockets. Let's look at your invasion which was justified as a war with Hamas in which you murdered many children. Again... at the time Hamas was NOT firing rockets as they honored a peace process which was not shown the same respect. Again you punished the wrong people as other factions in Gaza were responsible for those attacks. You just walk around with a big stick as a lunatic hitting whoever gets in your way crying out that you are so persecuted.
  14. 30 May '11 13:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Is it really necessary to risk life and limb to run a blockade to avoid landing in the Sinai and trucking the goods into Gaza?
    Clearly, you need to get with the program. Asking sensible questions like this only jeoparizes your credentials.

    Observing the following simple formulae may help.

    1) Regarding the making of threats and the use of force:

    Israelis = always malign, aggressive, outrageous; Palestinians = always valiant, defensive, excusable

    2) Regarding the ultimate heuristic to use in deciding whom to support:

    Weaker party = always right; stronger party = always wrong.

    3) Regarding the right mental attitude to adopt:

    Sentiment, outrage, indignation = in; reason, pragmatism, humility = out
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    30 May '11 14:11
    Originally posted by sh76
    Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

    The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its le ...[text shortened]... forth becomes irrelevant.

    Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."
    You're reduced to arguing semantics. A blockade remains in effect. One runs a blockade to negate its effects. So yes it's still necessary to "run the blockade" if you want to negate its effects.

    Surely you are not claiming the Israeli blockade is for the sole or even primary purpose of "stopping the flow of rockets"? If that is so, why are there severe restrictions on exports?

    Yes, the Egyptian decision does negate some of the more pernicious effects of the Israelis illegal acts toward Gaza. That is why the Israeli government is so upset about it.