Egypt opens Gaza border

Originally posted by no1marauder
Rafah is not a cargo crossing; Israel controls all of those. Even if small amounts of materials could be trucked in through Rafah, an end to the blockade is needed to insure that necessary materials are imported into Gaza and exports allowed out. Israel severely restricts both to the detriment of Gaza's people (in violation of IL).

BTW, objectionable even if ships could land in Newfoundland and truck goods into upstate New York.

Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its legality until the cows come home, but all the talk about Gaza being a "prison" and so forth becomes irrelevant.

Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."

Originally posted by sh76
Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its le forth becomes irrelevant.

Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."

So you believe it is allright to collaterally punish all Gazan's for the crimes of a few. No wonder you get rockets. Let's look at your invasion which was justified as a war with Hamas in which you murdered many children. Again... at the time Hamas was NOT firing rockets as they honored a peace process which was not shown the same respect. Again you punished the wrong people as other factions in Gaza were responsible for those attacks. You just walk around with a big stick as a lunatic hitting whoever gets in your way crying out that you are so persecuted.

Originally posted by sh76
Is it really necessary to risk life and limb to run a blockade to avoid landing in the Sinai and trucking the goods into Gaza?

Clearly, you need to get with the program. Asking sensible questions like this only jeoparizes your credentials.

Observing the following simple formulae may help.

1) Regarding the making of threats and the use of force:

Israelis = always malign, aggressive, outrageous; Palestinians = always valiant, defensive, excusable

2) Regarding the ultimate heuristic to use in deciding whom to support:

Weaker party = always right; stronger party = always wrong.

3) Regarding the right mental attitude to adopt:

Sentiment, outrage, indignation = in; reason, pragmatism, humility = out

Originally posted by sh76
Of course we'd find it objectionable, but if we consistently launched rockets from Plattsburgh at Montreal, the Canadians would be justified in blockading our northern coast to step the flow of rockets to Plattsburgh.

The point is, if there's really an open border with Egypt (and that seems far from clear at this point), we can debate the blockade and its le ...[text shortened]... forth becomes irrelevant.

Also, if there's an open border, it's no longer a "siege."

You're reduced to arguing semantics. A blockade remains in effect. One runs a blockade to negate its effects. So yes it's still necessary to "run the blockade" if you want to negate its effects.

Surely you are not claiming the Israeli blockade is for the sole or even primary purpose of "stopping the flow of rockets"? If that is so, why are there severe restrictions on exports?

Yes, the Egyptian decision does negate some of the more pernicious effects of the Israelis illegal acts toward Gaza. That is why the Israeli government is so upset about it.

Originally posted by dcac
Let's look at your invasion which was justified as a war with Hamas in which you murdered many children.

I don't think the 'you' pronoun is appropriate here.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Surely you are not claiming the Israeli blockade is for the sole or even primary purpose of "stopping the flow of rockets"? If that is so, why are there severe restrictions on exports?

Not rockets, specifically, but materials in general necessary to wage war against Israel? Yes; that is the primary purpose of the blockade. A secondary purpose is to undermine the Hamas government.

Israel is "so upset" about it (if that's true) because Israel believe that an open border will be used by Hamas to smuggle in Iranian and Syrian weapons to be used against Israel... which, of course, is correct.

Originally posted by sh76
Not rockets, specifically, but materials in general necessary to wage war against Israel? Yes; that is the primary purpose of the blockade. A secondary purpose is to undermine the Hamas government.

Israel is "so upset" about it (if that's true) because Israel believe that an open border will be used by Hamas to smuggle in Iranian and Syrian weapons to be used against Israel... which, of course, is correct.

There's little point in discussing it with you if you don't concede the obvious; that the primary purpose of the blockade and border closures was to punish the people of Gaza for voting in Hamas and pressure them into replacing same.

Getting small weapons into any territory on Earth is child's play and no blockade can prevent it. And restrictions on exports are a funny way to supposedly stop things from getting in.

Egypt Opens Gaza Crossing

YouTube

Originally posted by sh76
Not rockets, specifically, but materials in general necessary to wage war against Israel? Yes; that is the primary purpose of the blockade. A secondary purpose is to undermine the Hamas government.

Israel is "so upset" about it (if that's true) because Israel believe that an open border will be used by Hamas to smuggle in Iranian and Syrian weapons to be used against Israel... which, of course, is correct.

Hamas will certainly continue fighting against Israel as long as Israel interferes with their airspace and sea access. However, now that the settlers are gone, if Israel ceases it's attacks, Hamas will likely 'turn their back' on Israel and simply ignore them. A few fringe groups will still launch some rockets out of Gaza -- for awhile. But Hamas will wind that activity down.

In fact Hamas will unilaterally abide by the 10 year cease fire they have offered in the past -- IF Israeli aggression stops.

Originally posted by spruce112358
Hamas will certainly continue fighting against Israel as long as Israel interferes with their airspace and sea access. However, now that the settlers are gone, if Israel ceases it's attacks, Hamas will likely 'turn their back' on Israel and simply ignore them. A few fringe groups will still launch some rockets out of Gaza -- for awhile. But Hamas will w ...[text shortened]... abide by the 10 year cease fire they have offered in the past -- IF Israeli aggression stops.

[Hamas] regards the whole of historic Palestine as Islamic land and therefore views the state of Israel as an occupier, though it has offered a 10-year "truce" if Israel withdraws to the lines held before the war of 1967. It therefore generally justifies any actions against Israel, which has included suicide bombings and rocket attacks, as legitimate resistance. Specifically in Gaza, it argued that Israel's blockade justified a counter-attack by any means possible.[88]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Israelis, Palestinians on Obama and Netanyahu

YouTube

Originally posted by spruce112358
Hamas will certainly continue fighting against Israel as long as Israel interferes with their airspace and sea access. However, now that the settlers are gone, if Israel ceases it's attacks, Hamas will likely 'turn their back' on Israel and simply ignore them. A few fringe groups will still launch some rockets out of Gaza -- for awhile. But Hamas will w ...[text shortened]... abide by the 10 year cease fire they have offered in the past -- IF Israeli aggression stops.

Well, then, I guess the issue comes down to whether Hamas is responsible to stop the "few fringe groups" from "launch[ing] some rockets out of Gaza." Now that they have civil control over Gaza, they ought to be able to control that sort of thing (or at least make a good faith effort to do so).

So, it seems the terrorists will smuggle weapons more easily
now and continue their happy murdering of innocent Israelis.

Originally posted by Seitse
So, it seems the terrorists will smuggle weapons more easily
now and continue their happy murdering of innocent Israelis.

Year Fatalities Number of Rockets fired
2001 1 4
2002 1 35
2003 1 155
2004 5 281
2005 6 179
2006 4 946
2007 2 896[18][64]
2008 8 1,752
2009 0 578
2010 1 129[60]

total number killed 29

number of palestinians killed over short invasion 1400 of which a few hundred were children

Originally posted by sh76
Well, then, I guess the issue comes down to whether Hamas is responsible to stop the "few fringe groups" from "launch[ing] some rockets out of Gaza." Now that they have civil control over Gaza, they ought to be able to control that sort of thing (or at least make a good faith effort to do so).

All the Palestinian armed groups carry out rocket and mortar attacks, with varying frequency.[4] The main groups are Hamas, Islamic Jihad,[11] the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine,[12] the Popular Resistance Committees,[13] Fatah,[14] and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.[4]

Not all these factions are supportive of Hamas.

Originally posted by sh76
Well, then, I guess the issue comes down to whether Hamas is responsible to stop the "few fringe groups" from "launch[ing] some rockets out of Gaza." Now that they have civil control over Gaza, they ought to be able to control that sort of thing (or at least make a good faith effort to do so).

They're not likely to make much of a "good faith" effort while Israel continues to illegally blockade Gaza.