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Debates Forum

  1. 27 Dec '15 04:41 / 1 edit
    "The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound policy. It is in violation of the traditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."

    True of false?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Dec '15 05:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound polic ...[text shortened]... ditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."

    True of false?
    If you want to know what FDR proposed to fix the problem, the full speech is here: http://www.albany.edu/faculty/gz580/his101/su35fdr.html

    I doubt you'll like it.
  3. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    27 Dec '15 07:02
    I honoustly doubt I'll care.
    It's another boring thread about boring Americans arguing boring details on the extreme right of the political scale.

    America: the only country that actually thinks Ayn Rand is not a comedian.

    Really. It's time for the yanks on this site to understand that 95% of politics has nothing to do with America or their back-water concepts of right and wrong.

    The only aspect of US politics which is vaguely interesting to the masses is their foreign policies... Mainly because that usually ends up by killing mothers and children and lots of people in dire poverty.

    So, nothing positive at all.
  4. 27 Dec '15 08:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    "It is in violation of the traditions of America."

    True of false?
    Whenever someone invokes 'tradition' they are lacking a better argument. There is no genuine reason for following tradition other than the often false belief that people knew something you don't when they started the tradition.

    As for his other claims, lets see the evidence he refers to rather than taking his word for it (the word of a politician with a political agenda isn't worth much).
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    27 Dec '15 12:49 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Whenever someone invokes 'tradition' they are lacking a better argument. There is no genuine reason for following tradition other than the often false belief that people knew something you don't when they started the tradition.

    As for his other claims, lets see the evidence he refers to rather than taking his word for it (the word of a politician with a political agenda isn't worth much).
    FDR is citing a tedious and unquestioned mantra of the Liberal tradition.

    The question is why does FDR say this - in support of what policy proposals?

    Neoliberals would think it was an attack on welfare programmes. Their solution to welfare dependency (which they represent in terms that are typically false) is to cancel welfare payments and let people suffer, as though their poverty is their fault.

    I suspect without even looking into the source (I know it is a risk) that FDR is saying this in support of a programme of work creation, including some types of work (clearing the new national parks I think was one hobby horse of his) which do not result in a direct profit for capitalist owners or shareholders.

    It is not necessary or reasonable to starve the poor until they will work as slaves. It is necessary to invest them into work, so that they can live with dignity.

    It is the rich who are idle - they can afford to be. The poor struggle to live.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    27 Dec '15 12:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    FDR is citing a tedious and unquestioned mantra of the Liberal tradition.

    The question is why does FDR say this - in support of what policy proposals?

    Neoliberals would think it was an attack on welfare programmes. Their solution to welfare dependency (which they represent in terms that are typically false) is to cancel welfare payments and let pe ...[text shortened]... ith dignity.

    It is the rich who are idle - they can afford to be. The poor struggle to live.
    I am correct. Fancy that. Thanks to no1marauder for the reference and for those too lazy to look it up, here is a key section:
    We find our population suffering from old inequalities, little changed by past sporadic remedies. In spite of our efforts and in spite of our talk we have not weeded out the overpriviledged and we have not effectively lifted up the underpriviledged. Both of these manifestations of injustice have retarded happiness. No wise man has any intention of destroying what is known as the "profit motive", because by the profit motive we mean the right by work to earn a decent livelihood for ourselves and our families.

    We have, however, a clear mandate from the people, that Americans must forswear that conception of the acquisition of wealth which, through excessive profits, creates undue private power over private affairs and, to our misfortune, over public affairs as well. In building toward this end we do not destroy ambition, nor do we seek to divide our wealth into equal shares on stated occasions. We continue to recognize the greater ability of some to earn more than others. But we do assert that the ambition of the individual to obtain for him and his a proper security, a reasonable leisure, and a decent living throughout life is an ambition to be preferred to the appetite for great wealth and great power.

    I recall to your attention my message to the Congress last June in which I said, "Among our objectives I place the security of the men, women, and children of the Nation first." That remains our first and continuing task: and in a very real sense every major legislative enactment of this Congress should be a component part of it.

    In defining immediate factors which enter into our quest, I have spoken to the Congress and the people of three great divisions: '

    First. The security of a livelihood through the better use of the national resources of the land in which we live.

    Second. The security against the major hazards and vicissitudes of life.

    Third. The security of decent homes.

    I am now ready to submit to the Congress a broad program designed ultimately to establish all three of these factors of security - a program which because of many lost years will take many future years to fulfill.


    You know what? He forgot to suggest building a fkg great wall on the Mexico border! Missed a trick there.
  7. 27 Dec '15 15:50
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    If you want to know what FDR proposed to fix the problem, the full speech is here: http://www.albany.edu/faculty/gz580/his101/su35fdr.html

    I doubt you'll like it.
    "The Federal Government is the only governmental agency with sufficient power and credit to meet this situation. We have assumed this task, and we shall not shrink form it in the future. It is a duty dictated by every intelligent consideration of national policy to ask you to make it possible for the United States to give employment to all of these three-and-a-half million people now on relief, pending their absorption in a rising tide of private employment"

    From the quote from FDR above, would you say that the Democrat party has abandon his dream by allowing people to exist on the dole?
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Dec '15 17:15 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The Federal Government is the only governmental agency with sufficient power and credit to meet this situation. We have assumed this task, and we shall not shrink form it in the future. It is a duty dictated by every intelligent consideration of national policy to ask you to make it possible for the United States to give employment to all of these three-and- ...[text shortened]... d you say that the Democrat party has abandon his dream by allowing people to exist on the dole?
    No since the Democratic Party generally supports the same idea that he had i.e. federal programs of job creation for public infrastructure during times of economic crisis. Most of the Federal "public dole" programs were created by FDR (though he would not have so described them).
  9. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    27 Dec '15 18:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound polic ...[text shortened]... ditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."

    True of false?
    Absolutely! Let's start with the tens of billions in corporate welfare $$ freely given away to the Fortune 500 every year, TWICE the amount of money spent on social welfare. (Another inconvenient truth Americans never want to talk about) Then....we can think about yanking the lifeline from an unemployed mother struggling to raise her kids.
  10. 27 Dec '15 18:47
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound polic ...[text shortened]... ditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."

    True of false?
    This is why we need a living minimum wage so people can work and not need a hand out. When people work 40 hours a week and still need welfare, it is really their employer who is getting the handout while the rest of us have to supplement their income.
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '15 19:50
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I am correct. Fancy that. Thanks to no1marauder for the reference and for those too lazy to look it up, here is a key section:
    [quote]We find our population suffering from old inequalities, little changed by past sporadic remedies. In spite of our efforts and in spite of our talk we have not weeded out the overpriviledged and we have not effectively lift ...[text shortened]... t? He forgot to suggest building a fkg great wall on the Mexico border! Missed a trick there.
    Interesting quote from FDR there:

    No wise man has any intention of destroying what is known as the "profit motive", because by the profit motive we mean the right by work to earn a decent livelihood for ourselves and our families.

    This is false. Capitalists make profits. Workers make wages. The profit motive applies only to the wealthy.
  12. 27 Dec '15 20:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    No since the Democratic Party generally supports the same idea that he had i.e. federal programs of job creation for public infrastructure during times of economic crisis. Most of the Federal "public dole" programs were created by FDR (though he would not have so described them).
    But a great many people remain on the dole.

    Why not just hire them to do something? Hmm?

    According to FDR, it is rotting away the heart and soul of America.
  13. 27 Dec '15 20:38
    Originally posted by Phranny
    This is why we need a living minimum wage so people can work and not need a hand out. When people work 40 hours a week and still need welfare, it is really their employer who is getting the handout while the rest of us have to supplement their income.
    So instead of people working you would rather then not be working?
  14. 27 Dec '15 21:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Phranny
    This is why we need a living minimum wage so people can work and not need a hand out. When people work 40 hours a week and still need welfare, it is really their employer who is getting the handout while the rest of us have to supplement their income.
    Ronald Reagan said, "The best social program is a productive job for anyone who’s willing to work." Yet, liberals work incessantly to make it harder for poor Americans to find jobs. As the CBO confirmed, Barack Obama's proposal to increase the minimum wage to $10.10 per hour would cost 500,000 jobs. In D.C. big box stores like Wal-Mart were targeted with a new law that would force the companies to pay 50% above the minimum wage. As a result, Wal-Mart decided not to build six stores in an area which cost thousands of people much needed jobs. Because of Barack Obama's policies, there are actually a million less Americans working today than there were the day he took office even though our nation's population has grown by almost six million people. Since the poor have less experience and fewer job skills, Obama's job-killing policies are tougher on them than any other group of Americans. We need to do everything possible to make it easier and more likely that businesses will hire poor Americans, not set up even more policies that keep them from getting jobs.
  15. 27 Dec '15 23:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound polic ...[text shortened]... ditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers."

    True of false?
    Kind of a long winded way of saying government stepping in and giving handouts makes people lazy. Obviously true!