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@vivify saidTell me how this could have played out to change electors?
If a cop forges a search warrant using Microsoft word and then tries to use it, is that crime? Or should it be ignored like you're doing?
Edit: Also, the last "Nigerian prince" who sent me an email, I also ignored. What would you like me to do differently the next time a "Nigerian prince" emails me?
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@techsouth saidDodge noted. Interesting thing do after complaining other posters didn't answer your question.
Tell me how this could have played out to change electors?
Your question deliberately ignores context, completely isolating from a sitting President actively trying to overturn the results of an election, who was recorded asking an official from Georgia to "find" the exact number of votes needed to win that state, who pushed election lies, tried to stop the the transfer of power to the next president and incited a riot on the Capitol building to do so.
This is the problem with your question. In a complete vacuum, isolated from the most powerful office in America actively trying to overturn an election, those fake elector documents probably wouldn't mean much. But that's not an honest way to approach the situation.
@vivify saidOkay, so it is important for you that I repeat something totally obvious in what seemed to be more of a rhetorical question.
Dodge noted. Interesting thing do after complaining other posters didn't answer your question.
Your question deliberately ignores context, completely isolated from a sitting President actively trying to overturn the results of an election, who was recorded asking an official from Georgia to "find" the exact number of votes needed to win that state, who pushed election lies ...[text shortened]... ctor documents probably wouldn't mean much. But that's not an honest way to approach the situation.
Yes it would be a crime if a policeman were to print and use a fake search warrant
So I ask again, how would this have played out to change a single elector? And what is the specific crime, I am not even sure and care about as much as to whether the last "Nigerian Prince" email sender that contacted me has committed a crime.
But this is a thread about so called fake electors and you want to expand it to include all controversies pertaining to the 2020 election. Wouldn't it be better to focus a conversation on one thing at a time? My contention is that these so called fake electors, whatever crime may or may not have been committed is laughable in terms of being a real concern. Personally, I'd be a lot more angry at republicans had they went through Washington DC and broke a bunch of windows and committed all sorts of vandalism like the democrats did in 2017 when Trump took office. And I'm a lot more angry at any actual violence on Jan 6th.
But, if I were selected for jury duty and these fake elector people were being prosecuted, I'd follow the law whether I were angry enough to make you happy or not.
As far as trying to overturn the election, it seems more the case that many suspect fraud in the election and wanted to go back and audit. In no way that I've seen did anyone attempt to deny Biden a victory who didn't also believe that if given the chance to prove it they might be able to prove Biden didn't really win.
This is unlike 2016 when there was a serious push to get electors for Trump to defect and vote for Clinton instead. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/electoral-college-rogues-trump-clinton-232195
But, the media has told you that you should be outraged by these fake electors. And they've told you how to frame the narrative about overturning an election. Just go and keep repeating "these aren't the droids we're looking for".
@shavixmir saidWhat is the correct level of outrage for a symbolic gesture that had no chance of having any affect and involved no violence?
Where’s our right-wingers outrage at this abbhorrent behaviour?
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@techsouth saidIn your post that I responded to, you actually asked "is it a crime" in your attempt to minimize forging elector documents. That's why a concrete answer was needed. Glad you now admit it is a crime, contrary to your original question.
Okay, so it is important for you that I repeat something totally obvious in what seemed to be more of a rhetorical question.
Yes it would be a crime if a policeman were to print and use a fake search warrant
But this is a thread about so called fake electors and you want to expand it to include all controversies pertaining to the 2020 election. Wouldn't it be better to focus a conversation on one thing at a time?
That wouldn't be honest. After an insurrection incited by a sitting U.S. president to stop the certification of an election, it's not honest to pretend this incident isn't part of a larger effort to undermine an election. Maybe in past years you could've laughed it off as some isolated incident, but not for 2020.
So could this one, isolated incident have changed much? Probably not. But it's really not one isolated incident, it's part of a larger scheme to overturn an election. That's the problem.
@vivify saidIt doesn't seem you read all of my post.
In your post that I responded to, you actually asked "is it a crime" in your attempt to minimize forging elector documents. That's why a concrete answer was needed. Glad you now admit it is a crime, contrary to your original question.
[b]But this is a thread about so called fake electors and you want to expand it to include all controversies pertaining to the 2020 electio ...[text shortened]... ot one isolated incident, it's part of a larger scheme to overturn an election. That's the problem.
@techsouth saidyou cant debate this fool, vivfy changes what you say to fit his narrative
It doesn't seem you read all of my post.
@Mott-The-Hoople
Did you think that was going to distract us from the REPUBLICAN corruption going on in front of our faces?
@sonhouse saidLet me take a stab at something we can agree on...
@Mott-The-Hoople
Did you think that was going to distract us from the REPUBLICAN corruption going on in front of our faces?
1. Lot's of politicians are corrupt, to a varying degree.
2. Corruption and dishonesty is occurring among democrats and republicans (although I'm sure there'd be lots of disagreement on the relative amount of corruption).
3. There is a lot of misinformation that goes through social media.
4. There is even misinformation, much of it deliberate, coming from prominent media sources.
5. Politicians that have reached high offices are VERY GOOD at framing the narrative in their favor, whether that framing is fair or not.
6. Many citizens are affected by and believe the misinformation and self-serving narratives. Otherwise politicians and pundits wouldn't be bothering with their dishonesty.
------
So when you speak of the Republican corruption, even though I lean conservative, I can't disagree.
Also, it is possible to tell you are on the receiving end of dishonesty and misinformation even if you can't necessarily tell what the full truth is.
Humans are built with a tribal instinct and our inclination is to be more critical of and suspicious of the other "tribe" than of our own. Also, it has been demonstrated scientifically that we underestimate our own bias and overestimate the bias of others.
It has taken me many years to really grasp that my "team" is dishonest too and many times people making arguments in favor of the same things I'm in favor of are still making bad or sloppy arguments. There are many bad arguments that are being used to support ideas that are themselves good, in my opinion. I have reached the point where even things I strongly suspect are true, I try to deliberately be less certain that I feel because I know the art of deception is so well honed by those who use that craft.
I have at times found myself getting angry at things I see on the news, but then discovered later that the things I'm angry about weren't even true, or if they were true, were at most a very bad take on the reality. Not always, but definitely sometimes.
I can say for sure that many republicans are using bad logic and believing things that aren't true.
But let me put forth something that we probably won't agree on.
Democrats are doing it too. And they're doing it in a very big way.
My guess is that you're going to agree with this in theory but then you'll think "yeah, but at least Democrats try to use logic and reason". That will be an indication to me that you're still at a very low level of self-awareness.
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@techsouth saidThen fill me in on what you think I missed. It doesn't change that you're clearly trying to make these forged documents an isolated issue, separate from the conspiracy by a former president to overturn an election.
It doesn't seem you read all of my post.
@vivify saidThe fact that you can't see that this fake elector documents are not meaningful shows me that you don't have the capacity to evaluate and discern relative importance of information.
Then fill me in on what you think I missed. It doesn't change that you're clearly trying to make these forged documents an isolated issue, separate from conspiracy from a sitting president to overturn an election.
What good would it do to discuss other aspects of election controversy with you? If I put together a careful and detailed argument to challenge the narrative on another point of contention, you could just accuse me of making THAT an isolated issue too. And I would need to spend a lot of time compiling an argument about a complex event surrounded by lots of misinformation, all needing to be prefaced by the fact I have limits on my own direct knowledge of the people involved. I can already predict that the only thing I'd get is, "yeah, but you treat THAT as if were isolated".
I weighed in on this thread because it is simple to see how laughable it is. As I've said in other posts, Republicans have plenty of bad arguments too and I'm not starting a whole other discussion about things much more complicated, especially when I'll be presumed to support anything Republicans do just because I haven't spent my time doing nothing cutting and pasting all the Democrat talking points.
As with most things, reality is complicated. There is a whole lot of ground between "Republicans are all bad" and "Republicans are all good". It just so happened that this fake elector thing was one small part of reality that is not complicated. It is laughable, but politicians and pundits doing what they do with their craft of manipulating people's tribal inclinations are going to succeed in getting some people to think they're witnessing earth shattering events.
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@techsouth saidFor 800th time: you can't evaluate these forgeries in insolation.
The fact that you can't see that this fake elector documents are not meaningful shows me that you don't have the capacity to evaluate and discern relative importance of information.
If you see your wife laughing and joking with a coworker, no big deal, right? Now what if that coworker is a guy she cheated on you with?
See how context changes things? Same with those forged documents in light of a president trying to overturn an election.
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@techsouth
The bottom line is you condone the corruption going on in repub circles.
Like the attempt to subvert our election process by states controlled by repubs running up 400 + bills specifically designed to lower the % of democrat voters, people of color, poor, elderly. Can't have THAT now can we.
"These ARE the droids we are looking for".
Just wondered what you would have reacted to the idea what if even ONE of those fake electors had been accepted as real?
Would you be ok with the fallout from THAT event?
BTW, just because you go into a bank, tell everyone this is a robbery, wave a gun around, then go, I'm having second thoughts, forget it, runs out the door.
Did he commit robbery?
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@techsouth saidWe're all pleased that you can see some
Whoa! I should have researched this more. I've probably wasted too much time researching the the JFK conspiracy that I should have been using on this much more monumental event. "sonhouse" led me astray in part of this with "It wasn't just ONE forgery, it was FIVE and the perps all used the same format and those fakes didn't even look like the real thing." At lea ...[text shortened]... destroy democracy, but it could cost US tax dollars if they fall for that scam. Constant vigilance!
humor in all this......After all of your research
into JFK I must ask of you;
how is the weather in Dallas?
how is the morale among your people,
waiting at Dealey Plaza for JFK jr?
are you able to give us a ballpark ETA of his arrival?
BTY, if I encounter any Nigerian Princes attempting,
however poorly, to submit false documents, in order
to change an AMERICAN eIection result you will be the first to know
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@vivify saidIt's not that I don't understand your assertion nor your analogy. I disagree that it is a helpful frame for evaluating this situation.
For 800th time: you can't evaluate these forgeries in insolation.
If you see your wife laughing and joking with a coworker, no big deal, right? Now what if that coworker is a guy she cheated on you with?
See how context changes things? Same with those forged documents in light of a president trying to overturn an election.
My wife lives a private life, and although I can conceive of the possibility that someone would try to frame her, the idea is kind of preposterous because I can't even think of a reason anyone would want to lie about her in that way. (Edit: the implication being that if there were suspicious things happening with a close acquaintance, I'd have to give them serious consideration because the likelihood that there are numerous people out there trying to frame them would be very low).
At the national level of politics, things are very different. There is a never ending battle to gin up tribal anger between parties and if we allow ourselves to be worked into a frenzy every time someone wants us to be worked into a frenzy, before you know it we'll be burning down police stations and such.
There HAS TO BE some things you filter out of your anger cross hairs or you'll be lead around by the nose to do the bidding of the group of people most skilled at deception and mind control.
I can continue to look at the big picture and evaluate accordingly and that's not going to result in a automatic pass for republicans. But this fake elector thing is a total non concern and to me seems like the work of someone trying to gin up tribal anger over nothing.