@sonhouse
Just wondered what you would have reacted to the idea what if even ONE of those fake electors had been accepted as real?
Would you be ok with the fallout from THAT event?
I am sitting here trying to allow my emotions to feel what they would feel if that would happen, and I'm just not able to introspect any emotions at all. The whole premise is so far fetched that I can't make myself feel an emotional response to it. Intellectually, I suppose I would not like it. But if a space alien were to land and paint a purple swastika on my forehead, I suppose I'd be kind of mad at that too.
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@techsouth saidNot the same analogy
@sonhouse
Just wondered what you would have reacted to the idea what if even ONE of those fake electors had been accepted as real?
Would you be ok with the fallout from THAT event?
I am sitting here trying to allow my emotions to feel what they would feel if that would happen, and I'm just not able to introspect any emotions at all. The whole premise is so ...[text shortened]... n were to land and paint a purple swastika on my forehead, I suppose I'd be kind of mad at that too.
as a trillion check, huh?
@techsouth saidYou could be right. Everyone jumped on the Jussie Smollet bandwagon unquestioningly. Right now, no one knows who sent those fake documents.
I can continue to look at the big picture and evaluate accordingly and that's not going to result in a automatic pass for republicans. But this fake elector thing is a total non concern and to me seems like the work of someone trying to gin up tribal anger over nothing.
You seem to simply be advocating prudence. I respect that. You just happen to be in the company of climate-change deniers, people pushing election fraud, and people downplaying the Jan 6th riots, So at first glance, it can appear that you're simply following suit on this issue, because that's what we've come to expect of conservatives on this forum and in the political sphere.
Maybe you're another Sh76, a conservative who takes more thoughtful approaches to topics than stereotypical conservatives. If so, you're a welcomed addition.
@vivify saidI briefly thought of the possibility that the fake documents may have been sent by opponents of Trump and since I have no personal relationship to any of the perpetrators, I am at the mercy of the media to investigate. Still, I'd guess that it's far more likely that it was Trump supporters making a symbolic, but pointless gesture. Still, in no world can we expect the media to even ask such questions. They're only interested in pushing narratives.
You could be right. Everyone jumped on the Jussie Smollet bandwagon unquestioningly. Right now, no one knows who sent those fake documents.
You seem to simply be advocating prudence. I respect that. You just happen to be in the company of climate-change deniers, people pushing election fraud, and people downplaying the Jan 6th riots, So at first glance, it can appear t ...[text shortened]... houghtful approaches to topics than stereotypical conservatives. If so, you're a welcomed addition.
With regards to Smollet, I smelled fake from the moment I heard it. I know, it's easy for me to say that now. I'll never be able to prove that I was suspect from the beginning, so take it for what it's worth.
As far as some of the other claims, I have only fairly recently begun to appreciate how powerful and clever propaganda can be. Both sides spend billions for each election cycle, and you can rest assured they work with very skilled experts on framing the narrative. I'd love to find a place where questions that make you say "hmm" could be brought up and would result in deep thinking on both sides and honest challenges coming back. It's easy to find places to trade insults while cutting and pasting all the well known talking points.
So from my perspective, I naturally am inclined to think the Democratic politicians are the main ones doing the deceiving and the democratic voters the ones more believing the lies. But I can't hold that thought in my head without seriously considering the alternative that I'm the one more deceived. I can easily sit here and think my opinions are obviously true and shake my head in disbelief as to how someone can believe the opposite. But I have come to appreciate the fact that those on the other side are just as convinced they're right and they are incredulous that I can believe what I believe.
And for a closing thought, don't forget that I've already said that plenty of Republican held views are idiotic and I sometimes get bashed on conservative discussion groups for taking a contrarian view. I try to hold beliefs that are logically consistent and there is no possible way to apply use logic and conclude that Republican views are always right. So if you want to challenge me on my thinking, I'd prefer you challenge me on what I've said rather than what you think I probably believe.
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@vivify saidVery well said.....5THUMBS UP
Dodge noted. Interesting thing do after complaining other posters didn't answer your question.
Your question deliberately ignores context, completely isolating from a sitting President actively trying to overturn the results of an election, who was recorded asking an official from Georgia to "find" the exact number of votes needed to win that state, who pushed election lie ...[text shortened]... ctor documents probably wouldn't mean much. But that's not an honest way to approach the situation.
@techsouth saidBut what your doing here is downplaying the blatant corruption of the trump presidency and subsequent attempts to overturn a legitimate election as ‘business as usual’. It wasn’t business as usual it was another order of magnitude in comparison to the normal cut and thrust of politicos jostling for a place at the trough.
Let me take a stab at something we can agree on...
1. Lot's of politicians are corrupt, to a varying degree.
2. Corruption and dishonesty is occurring among democrats and republicans (although I'm sure there'd be lots of disagreement on the relative amount of corruption).
3. There is a lot of misinformation that goes through social media.
4. There is even misinformati ...[text shortened]... reason". That will be an indication to me that you're still at a very low level of self-awareness.
Yes politicians of all shades are disingenuous and corrupt to varying degrees but as Trump himself warned us, he is not a politician.
@kevcvs57 saidBut what your doing here is downplaying the blatant corruption of the trump presidency and subsequent attempts to overturn a legitimate election as ‘business as usual’.
But what your doing here is downplaying the blatant corruption of the trump presidency and subsequent attempts to overturn a legitimate election as ‘business as usual’. It wasn’t business as usual it was another order of magnitude in comparison to the normal cut and thrust of politicos jostling for a place at the trough.
Yes politicians of all shades are disingenuous and corrupt to varying degrees but as Trump himself warned us, he is not a politician.
It's not that I'm uninformed. I recall seeing anti-Trump articles per day on CNN in 2020.
But when I watch the news and filter through the obvious partisanship of the media and analyze the evidence carefully, I'm left with no clear evidence that Trump is more corrupt than Obama nor Biden.
I'm giving you a choice. You have an opportunity for a real clever and funny insult that will make you feel smart and probably get you a lot of thumbs up. Or you have a chance to do some actual mental reflection and engage in an actual conversation.
Why can't I see it? What is wrong with me that I see just as much corruption in Democrats as with Trump?
@techsouth saidI’m looking at this from across the pond, perhaps your to close to this thing.
But what your doing here is downplaying the blatant corruption of the trump presidency and subsequent attempts to overturn a legitimate election as ‘business as usual’.
It's not that I'm uninformed. I recall seeing anti-Trump articles per day on CNN in 2020.
But when I watch the news and filter through the obvious partisanship of the media and analyze the ev ...[text shortened]... an't I see it? What is wrong with me that I see just as much corruption in Democrats as with Trump?
From the outset of his campaign full of misogynistic jibes and bad imitations of a disabled journalist he became toxic in the liberal democracies of the world.
He blatantly cosied up to the full spectrum of the right wing during his time in office right up to and including the Neo fascists of the white supremacy groups.
He was recorded on tape trying to bribe / blackmail the president of Ukraine into finding dirt he could use against Biden in the 2020 election, he was recorded on tape threatening an election official in the state of Georgia with the full wrath of the federal state if he didn’t ‘find’ enough votes to overturn the result of the election there.
These are just some examples and only you can explain your own blind spot.
“ Why can't I see it? What is wrong with me that I see just as much corruption in Democrats as with Trump?”
I’ve proffered the kindest explanation I can think of at the beginning of this post.
@kevcvs57 saidHere is what I think you're seeing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I’m looking at this from across the pond, perhaps your to close to this thing.
From the outset of his campaign full of misogynistic jibes and bad imitations of a disabled journalist he became toxic in the liberal democracies of the world.
He blatantly cosied up to the full spectrum of the right wing during his time in office right up to and including the Neo fascists of t ...[text shortened]... with Trump?”
I’ve proffered the kindest explanation I can think of at the beginning of this post.
Trump is obviously at least 10x more corrupt than anyone else at his level. Everyone sees that and for some reason close to half of Americans are okay with that and at the very least support Trump and maybe even want more corruption. Or, for those that DON'T see that, the only possible explanation is they're stupid.
Here is the way I see it.
There are lots of allegations of corruption along with evil of all sorts toward Trump. Nearly all of them are debatable when analyzed carefully. We live in a world where there is much incentive to disparage political foes through any means possible and although I may underestimate the seriousness of some allegations, there is no possible way I can from a consistent view of reality that does not require me to take into account the fact that there are LOTS of deception going both ways.
Personally, I've never met Trump (nor Hillary) and have no personal basis on which I can judge their character. All I can use is 2nd, 3rd, and 4th person accounts. At the end of the day, some of them I cannot assess. I know that liars are all over the place, but there are many speaking truth as well. One thing I can say for sure that in many cases even when I don't know the truth, I can tell the conduit of information is obviously attempting to manipulate the narrative. Basically, I could say that CNN, for example, may be telling the truth, but I've seen enough to know for sure that that's not their priority and they'll fabricate narratives when they want.
I know that nothing I've said will convince you of anything, nor am I trying to. But I am trying to clarify where the disconnect is. If I thought for a second that Trump was in reality as bad as you think he is, trust me, I'd never consider voting for him and I'd be eager for him to be in jail.
All of us pick and choose our battles and the amount of time I'm willing to spend here on RHP debate forums requires that I limit what debates I engage in. My only hope is that if I can persuade someone that there is a different perspective on one very small thing, they may on their own decide to dig a little deeper on other things.
We're on a thread about fake electors. Obviously some believe this event was monumental. I have stayed out of hundreds of debates even though I have a different take on things because I'm not so naïve to think I'll change peoples minds and I could literally spend hundreds of hours failing to change anyone's mind. But I jumped in this thread because I thought to myself "hey, this is a very small thing and anyone ought to be able to see that there was 0 chance this would have any affect and any sane adult (including whoever sent these fake documents) would have known in advance that they would affect nothing". I actually thought I might be able to convince some Democrats that this is in reality a non-issue, and that they could see that while still holding on to many other reasons to hate Trump and his supporters. Something like "Yeah, I see this fake electors thing is just a big nothing-burger served up for partisanship reasons and/or news ratings, but hey, I still have plenty of reasons to hate Trump". And I'd have been fine leaving it at that. If even one person had taken that tact, I'd have walked away thinking to myself, "Now there's an intelligent person that still hates Trump. And since they're an intelligent person, maybe I should reconsider more carefully what they have to say against Trump." But it has turned out that for everyone who has stood their ground in the assertion that this fake electors thing is anything at all have reduced their credibility in my eyes. I see them as binary thinkers who have no capacity for nuance and have no capacity to challenge the opinion being assigned to them. (Again, I don't think I'm persuading you of anything. But this is just an attempt to clarify where the disconnect is.)
But you can review what happened. In order to bash Trump and/or Trump supporters, people have decided to hallucinate the possibility that these fake documents might have done something. And as things begun to wind down, seemingly trying to evade the reality that these fake documents were nothing but a symbolic gesture (much preferable to me than burning down police stations, BTW), it turned into "yeah, but what about all the other stuff".
So you put forth a list of a few other things. I could pick one of them and construct a careful analysis that makes a strong case that the so called "corruption" involved is at worst on par with Democrats. The reason I am not quick to do that is I already know where it would end. It would be something along the lines of what happened earlier on this thread. Something like "your point COULD be valid if it weren't for all the other stuff".
It is literally possible to continue to believe 100 lies if every time one is challenged you cling to your belief by saying 'yeah, but what about the other 99?" That's how propaganda works.
BTW: For anyone reading this that is interested in a conversation. Do you have ANY thoughts that aren't almost verbatim regurgitations of talking points we've all heard over and over?
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@vivify said"No one knows"?:
You could be right. Everyone jumped on the Jussie Smollet bandwagon unquestioningly. Right now, no one knows who sent those fake documents.
You seem to simply be advocating prudence. I respect that. You just happen to be in the company of climate-change deniers, people pushing election fraud, and people downplaying the Jan 6th riots, So at first glance, it can appear t ...[text shortened]... houghtful approaches to topics than stereotypical conservatives. If so, you're a welcomed addition.
"On Jan. 8, 2021, the Office of the Federal Register — which coordinates certain functions of the Electoral College between states and Congress — notified Michigan's elections director and Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's chief lawyer in an email that it received unofficial, signed certificates from GOP electors who had not been appointed by the Democratic governor. The group includes Republican National Committeewoman Kathy Berden and Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party."
"The invalid certificates also were mailed to the U.S. Senate, Benson, and the federal court for western Michigan. Two Republicans did not sign the documents and were replaced.
There are complaints pending in Wisconsin alleging that GOP electors in that swing state committed fraud by submitting the false paperwork. Biden won Wisconsin by just under 21,000 votes, a result that has withstood recounts, lawsuits and investigations into fraud.
Complaints have been filed with the bipartisan Wisconsin Elections Commission and the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office. Neither has announced publicly about any action taken in response. Another complaint against Andrew Hitt, an attorney who was chairman of the Wisconsin Republican Party at the time, has been filed with the agency that handles complaints against lawyers."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/michigan-ag-asks-feds-investigate-fake-gop-electors-82263515
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@techsouth said30,000 DOCUMENTED LIES?
Here is what I think you're seeing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Trump is obviously at least 10x more corrupt than anyone else at his level. Everyone sees that and for some reason close to half of Americans are okay with that and at the very least support Trump and maybe even want more corruption. Or, for those that DON'T see that, the only possible explanation is they're ...[text shortened]... thoughts that aren't almost verbatim regurgitations of talking points we've all heard over and over?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/
https://republicanssuck.org/trump-biggest-liar-in-history/
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@no1marauder saidFrom the link in the OP:
"No one knows"?:
"On Jan. 8, 2021, the Office of the Federal Register — which coordinates certain functions of the Electoral College between states and Congress — notified Michigan's elections director and Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's chief lawyer in an email that it received unofficial, signed certificates from GOP electors who had not been appointed by the Democratic gove ...[text shortened]... nal Committeewoman Kathy Berden and Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party.[/b]"
The Arizona document, dated Dec. 7, 2020, lists the names of 11 electors voting for the Republican candidates while the state's actual 11 electors cast their votes on Dec. 14 for now-President Joe Biden
I took that statement about "actual" electors to mean the forgeries were sent by fake electors. That's why I said "no one knows".
Thanks for the clarification. Based on your post, Tech South's "Nigerian prince" comparison fails, since this wasn't done by random scammers but actual officials. This can't be swept under the rug like he's been doing; this is like a cop producing a fake search warrant and trying to use.
@techsouth
Are you deliberately ignoring the 9 lawsuits going on against Trump as we speak?
8 civil cases involving Jan 6 and one actual criminal case about his corruption attempt in Georgia.
No big deal right? Boys will be boys........