@torunn saidI think it's important to consider why we have evolved such a long childhood. Other species do not need it. The end of childhood is not socially constructed. Between the ages of 15 to 19 there is more growth and development in the human brain than at any other life stage apart from 0-4. Within this process the frontal lobes basically come fully on line as we take charge of ourselves in terms of social rules and behaviours.
If a man knows the real age of the underage girl he tries to seduce, there is no excuse only explanations as to why he can't leave her alone. If she tries to encourage him in his attempt - which she may if she is flattered - he should still abstain.
We have evolved massive frontal lobes due to the complexity of our social behaviour and it takes many years of childhood experimentation and play before they are ready and programmed for managing ourselves as autonomous adults and ready to manage our social behaviour.
So why do our bodies mature sexually before our brains are ready to manage the complex social behaviours surrounding sex and sexuality?
Seemingly we get a period of time before our brains are fully adult to play and experiment with sexual social behaviours just as we have experimented with the other social behaviours through play. This is a time when we should experiment with flirtation, sexually provocative clothing and behaviour etc. This is also a time when the adults around us remain obligated to provide a safe environment for this healthy growth and development. As such they must absolutely abstain if these experiments and behaviours are directed towards them and protect us from taking these behaviours into situations where they might be exploited.
The self hatred within abuse survivors that commonly manifests in self harm and suicide is strongly associated with adults failing in this role. It is particularly apparent if the abuse was subsequent to the young person experimenting with sexualised behaviour and experiencing the urge to do so. In fact that was a normal part of healthy development and yet they are left despising themselves for it. Something normal which simply should not have been exploited by the adult. So yes, it is crucial that the adult abstains in terms of emotional wellbeing and development.
14 May 21
The post that was quoted here has been removedIf men were happy to marry what is now considered to be under-age women, for centuries, are you suggesting that the desire for sex was not part of the equation? Did lust for sex simply not exist in bygone era's when older men waited to marry girls as soon as they reached puberty?
14 May 21
@kmax87 saidYou seem to be arguing that if something happened through history it wasn't exploitative. I thought most people accepted that women have been exploited throughout history. Historically harems were filled with capture nubile slaves...
If men were happy to marry what is now considered to be under-age women, for centuries, are you suggesting that the desire for sex was not part of the equation? Did lust for sex simply not exist in bygone era's when older men waited to marry girls as soon as they reached puberty?
14 May 21
@relentless-red saidI'm arguing that in spite of what we would like to believe about the evolution of society and social mores, that underneath the veneer of civility and the moratorium on relationships now deemed taboo, there lurks a primal heart unbounded by social conventions, that will seek to satisfy its urges even at the risk of being named, shamed and pilloried.
You seem to be arguing that if something happened through history it wasn't exploitative. I thought most people accepted that women have been exploited throughout history. Historically harems were filled with capture nubile slaves...
14 May 21
@kmax87 saidSure, sex drive is a powerful thing. That's why we have evolved complex social rules to try and limit harm and exploitation.
I'm arguing that in spite of what we would like to believe about the evolution of society and social mores, that underneath the veneer of civility and the moratorium on relationships now deemed taboo, there lurks a primal heart unbounded by social conventions, that will seek to satisfy its urges even at the risk of being named, shamed and pilloried.
14 May 21
@kmax87 saidInteresting point.
If men were happy to marry what is now considered to be under-age women, for centuries, are you suggesting that the desire for sex was not part of the equation? Did lust for sex simply not exist in bygone era's when older men waited to marry girls as soon as they reached puberty?
What is underage? Is that our lawful definition?
Or is that a few years after the periods begin?
Is that when hips are fully developed? Breasts?
Very few cultures have ever found it acceptable to lust after 12 year olds.
14 May 21
@relentless-red saidTrue. But social rules don't mitigate primal urges. For centuries in multiple cultures around the world, being gay was social taboo often resulting the killing of gays. Homosexuality still persists.
Sure, sex drive is a powerful thing. That's why we have evolved complex social rules to try and limit harm and exploitation.
Social evolution is direct battle against human nature. Sometimes this battle is for good (rules against pedophilia) sometimes they're bad (slut-shaming).
@shavixmir saidDid you grow up on another planet?
Very few cultures have ever found it acceptable to lust after 12 year olds.
PLENTY of cultures have, not just in the distant past but today.
The Prophet muhammed married a nine year old, for ef sake.
Or did he marry a seven year old and wait until she was nine before having sex with her?
I forget.
14 May 21
@vivify saidThey most definitely don't mitigate primal urges. They evolve to contain them, just as the front of the brain evolves to inhibit the primitive stuff at the back of the middle. I guess we engage in conversations like this to try and influence the evolution of the social structures and conventions in the hope they will constrain the primal urges in a positive way.
True. But social rules don't mitigate primal urges. For centuries in multiple cultures around the world, being gay was social taboo often resulting the killing of gays. Homosexuality still persists.
Social evolution is direct battle against human nature. Sometimes this battle is for good (rules against pedophilia) sometimes they're bad (slut-shaming).
14 May 21
@shavixmir saidFrom what I've seen on Wikipedia in a cursory investigation on child brides, historically, then as soon as puberty hit, a child could be married off to be a wife.
Interesting point.
What is underage? Is that our lawful definition?
Or is that a few years after the periods begin?
Is that when hips are fully developed? Breasts?
Very few cultures have ever found it acceptable to lust after 12 year olds.
I think it may have been mostly an economic pressure. Families could be delivered of that extra mouth to feed if that daughter could be married off. The daughter/child/wife would have a longer time to produce children and so provide an economic benefit to her new family.
Because there was no education to look forward to and no real role in society other than being a worker/wife/mother/baby factory, unless they were from a wealthy background, being married off early regardless the age of the groom seemed the norm for many centuries.
If you can accept that as having been human history until relatively recently, then the age of women's suffrage and women's rights/empowerment, has only had about 100 years to correct centuries of imbalance.
Most men who have been educated to express empathy find it self evident to accept that an older man ogling a post pubescent teen is a disturbing state of affairs, but I would argue that the icky factor is not universal. I think for some, 100 years is not long enough to overcome centuries of habit. Those habits have influenced how the possibilities of DNA have been expressed to some extent. So in a real sense some men are still held hostage by their natures. Now for sure not all men, but definitely a non zero subset, less than men who masturbate, but more than men who make human skin lampshades.
my long and short opinion on the matter...
we were all born with internal instincts. a male being amorous towards a female is not taught behavior.
same with the girls. it is all genetically driven, in the end. different societies have differing ways
as how to handle the situation but they never eliminate the situation, else the society dies.
and that is the bigger point here, society lives on, NOT people are pleased with how sex is handled.
in other words, god/nature worries about the BIG stuff, while us sensitive ones worry about the little stuff.
Oh, a teenage girl has a near traumatic experience??? Jeeezus, who doesn't when they are teens.