Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10113
    21 May '16 19:46
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Next on their agenda is reducing the age of consent."
    yes.


    tell me what is the age at which a teen can be trialed for murder. that's what the age of consent should be.

    "They already teach kids in school how to have sex,"
    which only a tight ass fundamentalist could find wrong. kids will be boinking. they might as well know how so they don't end u ...[text shortened]... they wouldn't do if only someone had taught them how to boink properly without getting pregnant.
    So even though them "boinking" is illegal and still labeled rape under the law we should just continue to teach them how to "boink" safely and secretly give them the tools to "boink" and drive them to abortion clinics without any reprocussions?

    Duly noted.
  2. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    21 May '16 19:52
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Doesn't have anything to do with separation of church and state [...]
    Whodey seems to think it does.
  3. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    21 May '16 19:53
    Originally posted by whodey
    So even though them "boinking" is illegal and still labeled rape under the law we should just continue to teach them how to "boink" safely and secretly give them the tools to "boink" and drive them to abortion clinics without any reprocussions?

    Duly noted.
    What, in your opinion, should be done?
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    21 May '16 22:271 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.fox4now.com/news/4-in-your-corner/several-boys-have-sex-with-girl-15-in-south-fort-myers-high-school-bathroom

    A 15 year old girl had a gang bang in a school bathroom recently in Florida. The mother seems proud.

    Welcome to your secular humanist utopia everyone.

    So for your secular humanists, what is "wrong" with this if anything?
    If I was looking for a secular humanist utopia, I would not be looking to find it in Florida or anywhere else in the virtually theocratic USA. I think I would look at Holland, where first rate sexual health is the product of honest and open education from primary school onwards. Dutch women are statistically having their first sexual experiences later than other European and American women, there are far fewer teenage pregnancies, there are far fewer abortions... For women, this is the secular humanist uptopia in practice and it puts America to shame.

    Let's face it, in the absence of formal sex education, children are left to work it all out for themselves at ages when they are still immature and unable to manage risk. Anyone imagining that parents are the best people to provide sex education is not only an idiot but also ignoring the protests of a great many parents who recognise that they are just not equiped to do it well.

    Children do not engage in risky sex because some teacher told the how to do it but because no teacher told them how to do it.
  5. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10113
    22 May '16 01:36
    Originally posted by finnegan
    If I was looking for a secular humanist utopia, I would not be looking to find it in Florida or anywhere else in the virtually theocratic USA. I think I would look at Holland, where first rate sexual health is the product of honest and open education from primary school onwards. Dutch women are statistically having their first sexual experiences later tha ...[text shortened]... ky sex because some teacher told the how to do it but because no teacher told them how to do it.
    You have to let Obama's Common Core work first.

    You'll see, they will all be learned in no time.

    The US public school system is the best non-education money can buy
  6. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    22 May '16 07:51
    Originally posted by finnegan
    If I was looking for a secular humanist utopia, I would not be looking to find it in Florida or anywhere else in the virtually theocratic USA. I think I would look at Holland, where first rate sexual health is the product of honest and open education from primary school onwards. Dutch women are statistically having their first sexual experiences later tha ...[text shortened]... ky sex because some teacher told the how to do it but because no teacher told them how to do it.
    Well, Holland is not "secular" by any stretch of the imagination but yes, it is a good case study showing how proper sex ed classes and a non-hysterical culture surrounding nudity and sex can dramatically reduce teenage pregnancies and abortions. Given the latter fact, you would think that American anti-abortion activists would be more keen to embrace such an approach, however it seems that hypocrisy trumps pragmatism as it so often does.
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    22 May '16 09:15
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Well, Holland is not "secular" by any stretch of the imagination but yes, it is a good case study showing how proper sex ed classes and a non-hysterical culture surrounding nudity and sex can dramatically reduce teenage pregnancies and abortions. Given the latter fact, you would think that American anti-abortion activists would be more keen to embrace such an approach, however it seems that hypocrisy trumps pragmatism as it so often does.
    From a December 2014 survey by the VU University Amsterdam it was concluded that for the first time there are more atheists (25% ) than theists (17% ) in the Netherlands. The majority of the population being agnostic (31% ) or ietsistic (27% ).[5]
    A large majority of the Dutch population believes that religion should not have a determining role to play in politics and education. Religion is also decreasingly seen as a social binder,[2] and is generally considered a personal matter which should not be propagated in public

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands

    I have to rely on my imagination as I do not know Holland and I accept that you very probably do. However, I have at least supplemented my imagination with some basic Google searching and I think it is reasonable to use the term "secular." In my world, of course, I see "secular" not as an atheistic anti-religious cult, but rather a tolerant value system in which religious diversity is celebrated and not attacked, while social values are arrived at rationally and democratically, not through religious authority. I see Dutch sex education as reflecting a value system that is compatible with religion and yet is not derived from any religion. I concede that, on much closer inspection, it may emerge that this is mistaken, and I am aware that Holland has its right wing ideologues (who is not aware of this? They are loud enough.)

    It is compatible with religion because it promotes responsible behaviour and has the beneficial effect of freeing children and young adults from the tyranny of ignorance and reducing such religious anathemas as abortion and teenage pregnancy. One would like to think these were outcomes on which all could agree, but of course the religious Right, while professing concern for such matters, is in reality more concerned with patriarchal oppression of women in all aspects of their lives. They would prefer a high level of abortions for example, as in the USA, rather than tolerate sexual health services that are based on non religious and non oppressive values.

    When secular politics addresses religion it is based on the optimistic belief that we all share common values by virtue of being human and that we can agree on shared goals in a way that is rational and democratic. That is not what the religious Right want and they instead promote sectarian division based on hateful attitudes. I am sure that even in Holland, my utopia in this regard, the religious Right will be active in attacking the achievements of secular politics. At times they can be so noisy and boisterous they give the impression of being in a majority when they are, of course, a bunch of anachronistic throwbacks.
  8. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    22 May '16 10:07
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [quote]From a December 2014 survey by the VU University Amsterdam it was concluded that for the first time there are more atheists (25% ) than theists (17% ) in the Netherlands. The majority of the population being agnostic (31% ) or ietsistic (27% ).[5]
    A large majority of the Dutch population believes that religion should not have a determining role to p ...[text shortened]... impression of being in a majority when they are, of course, a bunch of anachronistic throwbacks.
    It is true that there are fairly many atheists and people not affiliated with any major religion (the agnosts and ietsists mentioned in your quote) in the Netherlands. Still, it is not a "secular" society - its head of state has an official religion (Calvinism) and religious institutions enjoy special privileges by law - for instance they can set up their own schools using public money. In parliament there are three explicitly Christian political parties, two of which could be described as fundamentalist, one of which believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible (these guys, while not as well-known, are much more extreme than the "right-wing" populists - and I mean guys quite literally, until a few years ago they banned women from being members until they were forced by a court ruling to accept them). These things could be considered relics of the past but until they disappear one could and should not regard the Netherlands as a "secular" society. In fact I would say that US law does a better job at separating Church and state.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    22 May '16 10:25
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    It is true that there are fairly many atheists and people not affiliated with any major religion (the agnosts and ietsists mentioned in your quote) in the Netherlands. Still, it is not a "secular" society - its head of state has an official religion (Calvinism) and religious institutions enjoy special privileges by law - for instance they can set up the ...[text shortened]... ular" society. In fact I would say that US law does a better job at separating Church and state.
    I take your point. Similarly the UK has Bishops in the House of Lords shaping legislation. But I was watching a fun 9 minute video about the political role of the religious Right in the USA and enjoyed the line "Evangelicals are like wasps - they are really small but you can't ignore them." These guys get more media attention than they earn.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/samantha-bee-donald-trump-evangelicals_us_5739d7e2e4b08f96c18396a2
  10. Joined
    31 May '06
    Moves
    1795
    22 May '16 12:03
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    It is true that there are fairly many atheists and people not affiliated with any major religion (the agnosts and ietsists mentioned in your quote) in the Netherlands. Still, it is not a "secular" society - its head of state has an official religion (Calvinism) and religious institutions enjoy special privileges by law - for instance they can set up the ...[text shortened]... ular" society. In fact I would say that US law does a better job at separating Church and state.
    That's fine in theory, but in practice most western/northern European countries are far more
    secular than the USA, despite the USA having laws that are supposed to require a separation
    between Church and State.

    The fact is in the USA there is a constant battle to enforce those laws and many many politicians
    do not follow or respect them [or voters for that matter].

    And while I would be more than happy for the UK [for example] to ditch our enshrined links between
    the CofE and government, we do in practice have far far less religion in government here than they do
    in the states.
  11. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10113
    22 May '16 12:06
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I take your point. Similarly the UK has Bishops in the House of Lords shaping legislation. But I was watching a fun 9 minute video about the political role of the religious Right in the USA and enjoyed the line "Evangelicals are like wasps - they are really small but you can't ignore them." These guys get more media attention than they earn.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/samantha-bee-donald-trump-evangelicals_us_5739d7e2e4b08f96c18396a2
    Those same "Evangelicals" just voted for Trump in large numbers who bragged about sleeping around with married women.
  12. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10113
    22 May '16 12:08
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What, in your opinion, should be done?
    Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do.

    In fact, many here probably think it would be OK for a 15 year old girl to have sex if she wanted to with anyone she wants.

    My guess is you don't think it such a big deal either.
  13. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    22 May '16 12:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    It would seem to me that the school should be liable for letting this sort of illegal activity happen on their premises.
    So I am guessing you want surveillance cameras installed in the bathrooms?
  14. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10113
    22 May '16 12:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So I am guessing you want surveillance cameras installed in the bathrooms?
    I don't favor using the state as a means to propagate morality, people like you do.

    So tell us, how should the state legislate the morality we need, or is there anything really immoral about what happened in the bathroom?

    What is your opinion?
  15. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    22 May '16 12:24
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    That's fine in theory, but in practice most western/northern European countries are far more
    secular than the USA, despite the USA having laws that are supposed to require a separation
    between Church and State.
    Are you sure this is the case? In my experience European Christians are less fundamentalist and so their political views may be less obviously religious in nature, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is so. For example I don't see Anglican bishops pushing for the teaching of creationism in schools even if they do wield political power in England. What they do push for may be less obvious. I would say the values of religious Europeans are in closer alignment to the values of the left whereas the far right in Europe is less religious than in the US. (of course these are just generalisations).
Back to Top