Georgians Rally for EU Membership

@no1marauder said
Don't be stupid; IF the US and Western countries had been honest that they intended to bomb until Gaddafi was forced out, Resolution 1973 would never have been passed.

And if he hadn't been passed, they would have done it anyway.

No one is being stupid, dictators like Gaddafi make regime change to easy, all NATO had to do was even the playing between the psycho Gaddafi and the vast majority of Libyans who wanted him gone.
I worry that your legalised mind set cannot grasp that real life does not always happen in the courts.
When the leader of your country can routinely have your sons tortured to death and your daughters snatched from the street on the way to school for his personal pleasure, regime change is always a distinct possibility. If you want to carry on that way you need to have powerful external supporters not powerful external enemies. Gaddafi was an insane monster and he got exactly what he deserved.
I get your point regarding the hypocrisy of the West but guess what there is a lot of hypocrisy in the East, North and South as well.

@kevcvs57 said
Stop talking like a pompous idiot from the 1960s and provide a link to the chapter from the art of war that covers long range artillery and nuclear weapons.
Your analysis would make sense if Ukraine or NATO declared war on Russia and drove a thirty mile long convoy of tanks up to the suburbs of Moscow
I suggest you go and live in a Russian occupied zone of Ukraine and spe ...[text shortened]... cting your cost of living and business opportunities, such a shame, why can’t we all just get along.

Seriously. It's unbelievable.

@shavixmir said
Seriously. It's unbelievable.

Is that a direct quote from ‘The Art of War’ on how to avoid how to avoid war get steam rollered instead?
Seriously what is this non violent strategy that was going to get the Ukrainians their country back once they had handed it over.
NATO is never going to take on Russias nuclear arsenal for the sake of Ukraine so the only ones that save Ukraine is Ukraine, but you rail about the options to war without actually saying what they are in this particular scenario.
Give it a go without making personal assumptions about those who disagree with you.

@kevcvs57 said
Is that a direct quote from ‘The Art of War’ on how to avoid how to avoid war get steam rollered instead?
Seriously what is this non violent strategy that was going to get the Ukrainians their country back once they had handed it over.
NATO is never going to take on Russias nuclear arsenal for the sake of Ukraine so the only ones that save Ukraine is Ukraine, but you rail ...[text shortened]... cular scenario.
Give it a go without making personal assumptions about those who disagree with you.

How long do you reckon a country can keep an invasion force in a foreign country, if the electorate doesn't want them?

You haven't read the art of war. Obviously.
Study chapters 3 and 7.

And while you're at it, read The Prince as well.

All very basic. But that's the fundamentels. If you can't win, then don't fight. Use other tactics.
A small country can't beat a nuclear power. End of.

Russia, even before invading, had no chance of "winning", there's no win-scenario for them. Certainly not in the medium to long term. So, to defeat them you don't need to battle. It's a battle you can't win. If you do battle, you lose and Russia loses.

I comprehend that it sounds complicated, but ultimately, Russia is going to lose whether you fight or not. By fighting you lose as well.
Ergo: don't fight.

Use other methods.

@kevcvs57 said
No one is being stupid, dictators like Gaddafi make regime change to easy, all NATO had to do was even the playing between the psycho Gaddafi and the vast majority of Libyans who wanted him gone.
I worry that your legalised mind set cannot grasp that real life does not always happen in the courts.
When the leader of your country can routinely have your sons tortured to de ...[text shortened]... pocrisy of the West but guess what there is a lot of hypocrisy in the East, North and South as well.

Western arrogance is that they always know what the People in other countries want.

IF the People in a nation want a dictator gone, it is their right and moral obligation to rise up and throw him out. They have been doing this for millennium. They don't need the US or NATO to do it for them; the result when outsiders do so is usually what you got in Libya - over a decade of bloody civil war and the destruction of that country's economy and society.

I cheered when the Libyans rose up against Gaddafi and booed when NATO intervened to force regime change.

@shavixmir said
How long do you reckon a country can keep an invasion force in a foreign country, if the electorate doesn't want them?

You haven't read the art of war. Obviously.
Study chapters 3 and 7.

And while you're at it, read The Prince as well.

All very basic. But that's the fundamentels. If you can't win, then don't fight. Use other tactics.
A small country can't bea ...[text shortened]... whether you fight or not. By fighting you lose as well.
Ergo: don't fight.

Use other methods.

No I Will not be reading the art of war and I do not know anyone who’s actually been in the army who has read it, it’s a pseudo intellectual piece of theoretical nonsense, I prefer to look at the main actors and their past record of behaviour.
As soon as the Putin regime announced that their main aim in invading Ukraine was to denazify Ukraine anyone who keeps their ears and eyes open, regardless of whether or not they’ve read the art of war knew that was code for intern and eliminate any civic or military opposition to the Putin regime and instal a puppet government backed permanently by Russian arms and a pro Putin domestic militia.
Presumably according to the art of war the Russian regime would loosen its grip on Ukraine but as soon as Ukraine tried to carve out a future that Russia did not like we’d be right back here so as hard as it seems there’s no real alternative to making control of Ukraine too expensive for the Putin regime in terms of its economic and military resources in the long term.
If your still not sure about the length and breadth of the control Putin is intent exercising over Ukraine check out his regimes reaction to Ukraine getting official EU candidate status even though the process will take 10 years or more.

@no1marauder said
Western arrogance is that they always know what the People in other countries want.

IF the People in a nation want a dictator gone, it is their right and moral obligation to rise up and throw him out. They have been doing this for millennium. They don't need the US or NATO to do it for them; the result when outsiders do so is usually what you got in Libya - over a dec ...[text shortened]... ered when the Libyans rose up against Gaddafi and booed when NATO intervened to force regime change.

They did rise up and throw him out though didn’t they, without a single western boot on the ground, it’s no secret that the west wanted Gaddafi gone, you mourn him if you must for the sake of your position. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
Contrary to your theory that every country lives in a moral and geopolitical vacuum Gaddafi caused much death and destruction in the west supporting terrorist groups with Semtex and arms with which they can killed military and civilians alike. So yes the west had every reason and the moral right to help the Libyan resistance to end his regime and arrogance did not come into it rather it was cold self interest.

@kevcvs57 said
No I Will not be reading the art of war and I do not know anyone who’s actually been in the army who has read it, it’s a pseudo intellectual piece of theoretical nonsense, I prefer to look at the main actors and their past record of behaviour.
As soon as the Putin regime announced that their main aim in invading Ukraine was to denazify Ukraine anyone who keeps their ears a ...[text shortened]... to Ukraine getting official EU candidate status even though the process will take 10 years or more.

For the record:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday he had no objections to Ukraine joining the European Union following the European Commission’s historic decision to back Kyiv’s bid to become a member.

“We have nothing against it. It is not a military bloc. It’s the right of any country to join economic unions,” Putin said on Friday when asked about the prospects of Ukraine joining the EU."

https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/18/uk-ukraine-crisis-eu-russia

@kevcvs57 said
They did rise up and throw him out though didn’t they, without a single western boot on the ground, it’s no secret that the west wanted Gaddafi gone, you mourn him if you must for the sake of your position. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
Contrary to your theory that every country lives in a moral and geopolitical vacuum Gaddafi caused much death and destruction in the ...[text shortened]... an resistance to end his regime and arrogance did not come into it rather it was cold self interest.

Western boots were on the ground:

"Another of Martin’s concerns is that individual Nato members did put ‘boots on the ground’, and we still know very little about what they did. He criticises a “lack of transparency regarding extensive bilateral military operations, including deployment to Libya of covert special forces” by Western and Gulf states.

Although the UN resolution precluded a “foreign occupation force”, British special forces went as far as accompanying and advising a rebel commander throughout the advance on Tripoli. Qatar’s chief of staff claimed to have deployed “hundreds” of his commandos in every region of Libya.

Martin laments “since the special forces operations and other military assistance were not officially declared, their legality has been little debated.” He says such missions were “deliberately concealed” from the UN Security Council and the UK “remained silent about the presence of its special forces during the fighting.”

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/uns-top-man-on-the-ground-in-libya-says-nato-bombing-exceeded-un-mandate/

Like most neocons, you don't seem to have any limit to your support for Western aggression. The same arguments could be mustered to excuse attacks on any of literally dozens of countries and were used to justify full scale invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

@no1marauder said
For the record:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday he had no objections to Ukraine joining the European Union following the European Commission’s historic decision to back Kyiv’s bid to become a member.

“We have nothing against it. It is not a military bloc. It’s the right of any country to join economic unions,” Putin said on Friday when asked about t ...[text shortened]... pects of Ukraine joining the EU."

https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/18/uk-ukraine-crisis-eu-russia

Haha well that must be how he feels about it then 😏

@no1marauder said
Western boots were on the ground:

"Another of Martin’s concerns is that individual Nato members did put ‘boots on the ground’, and we still know very little about what they did. He criticises a “lack of transparency regarding extensive bilateral military operations, including deployment to Libya of covert special forces” by Western and Gulf states.

Although the UN r ...[text shortened]... literally dozens of countries and were used to justify full scale invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So an anti war guy talks about secret missions that he doesn’t seem to have any evidence of and that constitutes an invasion and boots on the ground. Hardly a gotcha moment is it No1

@kevcvs57 said
So an anti war guy talks about secret missions that he doesn’t seem to have any evidence of and that constitutes an invasion and boots on the ground. Hardly a gotcha moment is it No1

It's common knowledge ( check the Wikipedia article on Libya 2011) and the "anti-war guy" was an official at the UN.

EDIT: See the BBC article from January 2012: "Inside Story of UK's Secret Mission to beat Gaddafi".

@no1marauder said
It's common knowledge ( check the Wikipedia article on Libya 2011) and the "anti-war guy" was an official at the UN.

EDIT: See the BBC article from January 2012: "Inside Story of UK's Secret Mission to beat Gaddafi".

But secret missions go on all the time all over the world by this criteria Russia invaded the UK when they poisoned Stripol and his daughter in Salisbury
To claim that a secret mission or training cadre amounts to a boots on the ground invasion is facetious. The fact that it is common knowledge is irrelevant an actual boots on the ground invasion would have been captured on video by at least one of the major news channels that covered it.
The Libyans changed their own regime with help from a UNSC backed mission to ground its airforce and cripple its heavy weaponry to stop them being used on its own civilian population.
To conflate that with the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine is just wrong.

@kevcvs57 said
But secret missions go on all the time all over the world by this criteria Russia invaded the UK when they poisoned Stripol and his daughter in Salisbury
To claim that a secret mission or training cadre amounts to a boots on the ground invasion is facetious. The fact that it is common knowledge is irrelevant an actual boots on the ground invasion would have been captured o ...[text shortened]... ivilian population.
To conflate that with the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine is just wrong.

Don't be an imbecile; these were uniformed members of the UK's and other countries' armed forces. And more to the point, what is the difference between using planes to destroy a nation's resistance or sending in ground troops? You can't seriously believe that bombing a country is morally superior can you?

If you actually do, you're ridiculous.

@kevcvs57 said
No I Will not be reading the art of war and I do not know anyone who’s actually been in the army who has read it, it’s a pseudo intellectual piece of theoretical nonsense, I prefer to look at the main actors and their past record of behaviour.
As soon as the Putin regime announced that their main aim in invading Ukraine was to denazify Ukraine anyone who keeps their ears a ...[text shortened]... to Ukraine getting official EU candidate status even though the process will take 10 years or more.

Uhuh.

You know nothing. Obviously.