It comes down to how we view illegals.
Do we regard them as "de facto legal residents" who should have the same access to healhcare as anyone else?
Or do we regard them as outlaws and criminals that should be forcibly banished from society?
But we can't make up our collective mind about this.
Perhaps we will eventually figure out what to do with them - either making them all legal, or sending them all back (or perhaps a combination of both). But even as they remain in limbo, they're still human beings - they should have access to coverage.
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Originally posted by PalynkaThe irony is that people in prison probably have access to more healthcare than a lot of uninsured law-abiding people.
Should murderers or rapists be denied health care in this universal health care system?
Anyone that answers "no", should be able to answer the question of the original poster.
Originally posted by whodeyThis question cannot be separated from the larger question of what to do with illegal immigrants in the first place. You can seal the borders now- that's all well and good, but what do you do with the 13 million illegals already here?
What should be done in terms of health care for illegals?
Debate!!
Personally, I'd look carefully at the provisions of something along the lines of McCain-Kennedy.
Originally posted by sh76First you restore the rule of law in a way that will allow us to re-gain control. Off the top of my head that would include something like...
This question cannot be separated from the larger question of what to do with illegal immigrants in the first place. You can seal the borders now- that's all well and good, but what do you do with the 13 million illegals already here?
Personally, I'd look carefully at the provisions of something along the lines of McCain-Kennedy.
A) Deport the ones you catch and keep improving security of the borders, but don't even contemplate trying to deport all illegal immigrants because that would be impossible.
B) Make the use of E-Verify a requirement nationwide for all employers, retroactive to all existing employees, and all new employees going forward. Employees failing the test should get a reasonable chance to clear their name, but failing that should be fired, or the employer heavily fined.
C) Make it impossible for an illegal immigrant to get a bank account, get a loan, cash a check, rent an apartment, or rent or buy a house in this country.
D) Withhold federal funding from any city, county, or state that does not enforce these requirements.
E) Build verification of legal status into any new entitlements going forward, including tax-payer subsidized health care.
After rule of law has been substantially restored, then we should adjust our target immigration numbers to reflect how many immigrants we actually need, and of what type (education level, or specific skills), and fix the process so it doesn't take forever to legally immigrate to this country.
Throughout this process, we should continue giving everyone (legal immigrant or otherwise) emergency medical treatment whether they can pay or not.
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Originally posted by SleepyguyThese are probably all things that we should do - but clearly, no one has the political will to even propose such measures.
First you restore the rule of law in a way that will allow us to re-gain control. Off the top of my head that would include something like...
A) Deport the ones you catch and keep improving security of the borders, but don't even contemplate trying to deport all illegal immigrants because that would be impossible.
B) Make the use of E-Verify a require eryone (legal immigrant or otherwise) emergency medical treatment whether they can pay or not.
One concern I would have, though, is that we could end up with a mess much like we had with prohibition. You might end up with a whole "underground" made up of people employing illegal immigrants (or giving them education, loans, housing, etc.), and the illegal immigrants themselves receiving the jobs and services.
The problem with "undergrounds" like this is that if someone does something bad to someone else, neither party will want to call the police for obvious reasons. So disputes have to be settled from within. This is a major reason why gangs in general do so much violence to each other.
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Originally posted by Melanerpes
These are probably all things that we should do - but clearly, no one has the political will to even propose such measures.
I wouldn't say "no one". Just not enough yet. This is, I believe, what the majority of the American people want and we shouldn't allow our corrupt public servants to go on flouting the rule of law, and the will of the people.
One concern I would have, though, is that we could end up with a mess much like we had with prohibition. You might end up with a whole "underground" made up of people employing illegal immigrants, or giving them education, loans, housing, etc. - and the illegal immigrants themselves receiving jobs and services.
Isn't that pretty much what we have now?
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Originally posted by SleepyguySomething seems to be blocking any effort to require employers to specifically verify that all their workers are legal, with strong punishments against employers that don't comply.
Originally posted by Melanerpes
[b]These are probably all things that we should do - but clearly, no one has the political will to even propose such measures.
I wouldn't say "no one". Just not enough yet. This is, I believe, what the majority of the American people want and we shouldn't allow our corrupt public servants to go on flouting t s themselves receiving jobs and services.[/b]
Isn't that pretty much what we have now?[/b]
I think Americans are very ambivalent on the issue. They agree that illegal immigration is a problem - but almost any proposal to do something about it seems to have an "ethnic cleansing" flavor that makes most people cringe.
I agree that there's already an "underground" situation regarding illegal immigrants as it is. And it's one reason why we need to figure out a way to either document them or deport them. It's not good to have a whole class of people living in the shadows. But a harsher crackdown could make the whole thing much much worse.
Maybe the only way to find out is to enact the laws and see what happens. Hopefully the benefits outweigh the costs. This is pretty much the way it is with any law.
Originally posted by MelanerpesWell, I think there's a fundamental principle at stake here. Either rule of law is important, or it's not. The law has been flouted for decades by our government and businesses and the people are sick of it. There will surely be a price to pay, after all this time, to end illegal immigration. But to give up on the rule of law because it's just too darn inconvenient is to abandon a fundamental principle that helps bind this society. Rule of law. We need to pay the price and restore it, or we're nothing.
Something seems to be blocking any effort to require employers to specifically verify that all their workers are legal, with strong punishments against employers that don't comply.
I think Americans are very ambivalent on the issue. They agree that illegal immigration is a problem - but almost any proposal to do something about it seems to have an "eth ...[text shortened]... pefully the benefits outweigh the costs. This is pretty much the way it is with any law.
Originally posted by sh76True. You should probably say "Even if you could seal the borders now . . ." We can ramp up security, but we can't reasonable shut down our entire border. It would be far more expensive than the status quo.
This question cannot be separated from the larger question of what to do with illegal immigrants in the first place. You can seal the borders now- that's all well and good, but what do you do with the 13 million illegals already here?
Personally, I'd look carefully at the provisions of something along the lines of McCain-Kennedy.
Originally posted by Sleepyguy(A) is reasonable
First you restore the rule of law in a way that will allow us to re-gain control. Off the top of my head that would include something like...
A) Deport the ones you catch and keep improving security of the borders, but don't even contemplate trying to deport all illegal immigrants because that would be impossible.
B) Make the use of E-Verify a require ...[text shortened]... eryone (legal immigrant or otherwise) emergency medical treatment whether they can pay or not.
(B) some electronic verification system makes sense. E-Verify may be good. I don't know.
(C) Yes, but how? That's the rub. You can go after banks. That takes care of accounts. The kinds of illegal immigrants people think of (poor Mexicans) don't buy houses anyway. They rent. I don't see how you're going to stop that. Are you going to raid random apartment buildings?
(D) Again, way too vague. And at that you might without some federal funding as a penalty, but to withhold all federal funding (if that is in fact what you mean) is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. On the aggregate net losses from illegal immigration are pretty small, withholding funding to a state would be a much bigger problem.
(E) If no1 is correct, it sounds like any law that restricts benefits to citizens implicitly mandates that the overseeing body use some means t verify citizenship.
"After the rule of law has been substantially restored . . ."
I think that's getting way too far ahead of ourselves, but I do think we should do a better job of selecting specific immigrants.
Tongue-in-cheek though, if you stop giving medical care to anyone who can't verify citizenship in the ER we'd reduce our numbers a bit.
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Originally posted by telerionHas anyone done a serious cost analysis regarding cost of securing the border verses the costs associated with the tax payers paying for illegals via medical care and schooling etc?
True. You should probably say "Even if you could seal the borders now . . ." We can ramp up security, but we can't reasonable shut down our entire border. It would be far more expensive than the status quo.
Hey, why not just build another "Panama Canal", only it woould be along the US border? That way the US could benefit in the long term financially from the endevour while at the same time sealing off the border?
Just call me crazy!!