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Debates Forum

  1. 17 Feb '15 14:26
    we all have that one racist uncle that keeps whining about how those damn aliens wreck the economy. how they steal jobs from americans (jobs that americans won't do).

    here is some light reading for all you racist uncles visiting this forum.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


    "undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund."


    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/unauthorized-immigrants-pay-taxes-too
    "Tax Day is an appropriate time to underscore the often-overlooked fact that unauthorized immigrants pay taxes. The unauthorized, like everyone else in the United States, pay sales taxes. They also pay property taxes—even if they rent. At least half of unauthorized immigrants pay income taxes. Add this all up and it amounts to billions in revenue to state and local governments."
  2. 17 Feb '15 20:14
    And where I live they are most all collecting snap , subsidized housing, elec, gas, medical, disability and on and on. Most driving hummers , bmw, mercedes stc. parking in the handicapped parking spaces. Only time the men show up is on the w/e after working under the table at prevailing wage sometimes.
  3. 17 Feb '15 20:23
    Originally posted by kquinn909
    And where I live they are most all collecting snap , subsidized housing, elec, gas, medical, disability and on and on. Most driving hummers , bmw, mercedes stc. parking in the handicapped parking spaces. Only time the men show up is on the w/e after working under the table at prevailing wage sometimes.
    Are you Zahlanzi's uncle?
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    17 Feb '15 20:33
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    we all have that one racist uncle that keeps whining about how those damn aliens wreck the economy. how they steal jobs from americans (jobs that americans won't do).

    here is some light reading for all you racist uncles visiting this forum.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted= ...[text shortened]... e taxes. Add this all up and it amounts to billions in revenue to state and local governments."
    The claim that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do is empirically unsupported and, in all likelihood, false. The US has had persistently high levels of un and underemployment of its workers alongside the sharp increase in illegals. It is economic nonsense to suppose that many of those jobs wouldn't have went to US workers. When figuring in the economic benefit of illegals one should subtract the opportunity cost of lost wages to US workers and the added costs, both of a direct economic nature and of an indirect social nature, of increased unemployment to US workers. There is also the unpleasant fact that illegals are often exploited and paid wages below the prevailing, or even the legal, wage thus making them unfair (as well as illegal) competition for jobs.

    I highly doubt the net effect of the massive number of illegals, even if most are gainfully employed (which seems probable), is positive.
  5. 17 Feb '15 20:45
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The claim that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do is empirically unsupported and, in all likelihood, false.
    One could actually argue that there is no such thing as a job that Americans won't do (or for that matter people of any nation). If there are not enough people willing to work, the wages will go up until people are willing to do it, or it gets automated. Supply and demand.

    I highly doubt the net effect of the massive number of illegals, even if most are gainfully employed (which seems probable), is positive.
    That depends on whom you are talking about. It is probably positive for the rich employers as the work gets done for less. Its probably negative for the middle class as it drives wages down.
  6. 17 Feb '15 20:50
    Originally posted by no1marauder


    I highly doubt the net effect of the massive number of illegals, even if most are gainfully employed (which seems probable), is positive.
    What measure would you use to determine this net effect?
  7. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    17 Feb '15 21:04
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What measure would you use to determine this net effect?
    Something like this: http://www.analysisonline.org/site/aoarticle_display.asp?issue_id=1&sec_id=140002434&news_id=140001400

    Though it does not appear that that analysis takes into account the full social costs of increased unemployment among US workers caused by illegal immigration. It seems obvious that said immigration worsens income inequality with all the negatives that entails as well.
  8. 17 Feb '15 21:41
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Something like this: http://www.analysisonline.org/site/aoarticle_display.asp?issue_id=1&sec_id=140002434&news_id=140001400

    Though it does not appear that that analysis takes into account the full social costs of increased unemployment among US workers caused by illegal immigration. It seems obvious that said immigration worsens income inequality with all the negatives that entails as well.
    To me, the sensible measure would be to look at the (intrinsic) effect on the average standard of living of both immigrants and the native population. Effects related to unemployment or underemployment are not directly a result of immigration but a result of government policy choices leading to an inadequate standard of living for the unemployed or working poor. The clear intrinsic effects would be an expansion of the economy due to population growth and a resentment of racists and xenophobes towards immigrants.
  9. 17 Feb '15 22:19
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The claim that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do is empirically unsupported and, in all likelihood, false. The US has had persistently high levels of un and underemployment of its workers alongside the sharp increase in illegals. It is economic nonsense to suppose that many of those jobs wouldn't have went to US workers. When figuring in the econo ...[text shortened]... ive number of illegals, even if most are gainfully employed (which seems probable), is positive.
    "The claim that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do is empirically unsupported and, in all likelihood, false"
    that wasn't the most important thing in my post. if it bothers you i retract it.
  10. 17 Feb '15 22:23
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    One could actually argue that there is no such thing as a job that Americans won't do (or for that matter people of any nation). If there are not enough people willing to work, the wages will go up until people are willing to do it, or it gets automated. Supply and demand.

    [b]I highly doubt the net effect of the massive number of illegals, even if most ...[text shortened]... the work gets done for less. Its probably negative for the middle class as it drives wages down.
    "Its probably negative for the middle class as it drives wages down."
    the money funneled into social security is positive though, even more so when many illegals cannot get that money back. it simply disproves one of the favorite arguments used by anti illegals zealots, that there will be a lot of mexicans getting medical attention for free, bankrupting the system.

    data seems to support that illegals actually keep the social security system from going bankrupt.
  11. 17 Feb '15 22:30 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Something like this: http://www.analysisonline.org/site/aoarticle_display.asp?issue_id=1&sec_id=140002434&news_id=140001400

    Though it does not appear that that analysis takes into account the full social costs of increased unemployment among US workers caused by illegal immigration. It seems obvious that said immigration worsens income inequality with all the negatives that entails as well.
    does being an american entitle you to better pay?

    those people are willing to work for less in the same conditions, with the same living costs as americans.

    do you think that once they become americans (if allowed), those that were willing to work their buts off before will suddenly demand double pay?

    it is not the illegals bringing down wages (EDIT: no, i am not arguing they have no effect at all). it's the corporate giants who lobby for it. kind of like the kochs, who said that minimum wage leads to fascism.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    17 Feb '15 22:53
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    we all have that one racist uncle that keeps whining about how those damn aliens wreck the economy. how they steal jobs from americans (jobs that americans won't do).

    here is some light reading for all you racist uncles visiting this forum.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted= ...[text shortened]... e taxes. Add this all up and it amounts to billions in revenue to state and local governments."
    Unauthorized immigrants may pay some taxes like sales, but by and large, they don't pay federal income tax. they get paid in cash and both they and their employers are ripping off the government. It's far better for the country as a whole if everyone in the country is here legally and working on the books.
  13. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    17 Feb '15 22:56
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    does being an american entitle you to better pay?

    those people are willing to work for less in the same conditions, with the same living costs as americans.

    do you think that once they become americans (if allowed), those that were willing to work their buts off before will suddenly demand double pay?

    it is not the illegals bringing down wages (ED ...[text shortened]... te giants who lobby for it. kind of like the kochs, who said that minimum wage leads to fascism.
    Being an American in the US or anyone else legally in the US entitles you to pay dictated by the free market under whatever labor protections are applied by applicable law. That illegal immigrants work off the books for less than minimum wage and don't pay taxes is hardly a boon to the economy. I don't blame the individual illegal immigrant. He's just trying to make a better life and would no doubt work on the books if he could, but illegal immigrants are hardly a net positive to the country.
  14. 17 Feb '15 23:05
    How is all that data gathered regarding undocumented (illegal) workers? If we can find them to survey their earnings, taxation, etc., why can't we find them in order to deport them?

    If they consume goods, they are a part of the economy, but so would be the Americans who could hold those jobs, reducing unemployment to a possible zero.
  15. 17 Feb '15 23:09
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    data seems to support that illegals actually keep the social security system from going bankrupt.
    What data, collected where? Illegals are illegal. They are also undocumented. Who are these illegals that are counted in survey data?