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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    05 May '12 15:15
    This was an interesting CNN article about Ron Paul and the spirit of his campaign:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/04/opinion/stanley-ron-paul/index.html

    My question is: what do you think will be the trajectory of libertarianism, in the next few decades, as a faction of the GOP or as a blossoming third-party movement?

    Please note that I, like the author of the article (who writes that "[Paul's] supporters were more inclined to be pro-choice on abortion, nonevangelical, and opposed to the tea party. Given that Paul is pro-life, religious, and wildly supportive of the tea party, this confirms the growing tension between the man and his movement" ), distinguish between libertarianism and Tea-Party conservatism. If you don't, that's fine, but at least make that clear in your discussion.
  2. 05 May '12 15:43
    Libertarianism is the natural consequence of people being brought up to believe that there is no such thing as right and wrong. In other words, it is the natural consequence of the education system that liberals have been pushing for the last few generations. I forsee a huge growth in the libertarian movement in the next generation or two. You can only push a generation so far, it takes several generations to see serious change based on government manipulation.
  3. 05 May '12 16:04
    In recent decades we have seen religion on a decline in the industrialized world. Perhaps this is a symptom of a general trend where reason is becoming more prominent in popular ideologies. If this is indeed the case then one would also expect libertarianism to go in decline on the long term.
  4. 05 May '12 17:12
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    In recent decades we have seen religion on a decline in the industrialized world. Perhaps this is a symptom of a general trend where reason is becoming more prominent in popular ideologies. If this is indeed the case then one would also expect libertarianism to go in decline on the long term.
    Reason = Leftist?

    Wow, what a point of view.
  5. 05 May '12 17:17
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    This was an interesting CNN article about Ron Paul and the spirit of his campaign:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/04/opinion/stanley-ron-paul/index.html

    My question is: what do you think will be the trajectory of libertarianism, in the next few decades, as a faction of the GOP or as a blossoming third-party movement?

    Please note that I, like the auth ...[text shortened]... conservatism. If you don't, that's fine, but at least make that clear in your discussion.
    There are certain aspects that should continue to gain popularity...end of entitlements, social freedoms etc.. But when it gets to overturning items such as the Equal Right Amendment or being rid of public education, public supported hospitals, public supported charities, being rid if federal child support enforcement, people will turn away from it and it will come back to what it is today.

    I'v voted for lots of them over the last 36 years when the alternatives are poor. I vote to give them a voice.
  6. 05 May '12 17:19
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Reason = Leftist?

    Wow, what a point of view.
    Not libertarian = Leftist?
  7. 05 May '12 18:14
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Not libertarian = Leftist?
    Nope, your response = leftist.
  8. 05 May '12 18:37
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Nope, your response = leftist.
    Don't be silly.
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 May '12 21:39 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    In recent decades we have seen religion on a decline in the industrialized world. Perhaps this is a symptom of a general trend where reason is becoming more prominent in popular ideologies. If this is indeed the case then one would also expect libertarianism to go in decline on the long term.
    You need to recollect GK Chesteron's excellent aphorism in this context: "When people stop believing in God they do not believe in nothing, they believe in anything."

    The traditional aim of public education being to enable people to think and become responsible, rational citizens has increasingly been challenged and replaced with either plain religious education in the hands of more irrational religious trends, notably the creationists, or more often with a type of education that is dumbed down to provide basic, employment related certificates for people unable to think for themselves. Education in politically related topics - such as sociology and even decent history teaching - is dumbed down or ostracised and marginalised so that people cannot challenge the mumbo jumbo passing for received wisdom not only in politics but in business too. In a tick box culture, people are trained to have the received and accepted answers at the front of their minds without ever questioning why. If they still don't fit in they are unemployable.

    The knowledge economy is increasingly peopled by keen students and graduates from developing countries like India where engineering and science are still respected.

    The media are following suit (or leading the way really). They have increasingly mastered the art of populist demagoguery - issuing bland received wisdom and declining to challenge their readers or audiences into critical thought about alternative perspectives. Hence we observe the idiocy passing for grassroots politics in America's Mad Hatter's Tea Party.

    How often do people in the media pride themselves on never reading a book and never trying to understand politics or economics or whatever. It is cool to be thick. It is even more cool to be thick and rich.
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    05 May '12 21:42 / 1 edit
    I was Libertarian before Libertarians were cool.

    Now its all about Anarchism. In a few years society will catch up to the trend...

    EDIT - Wait rwingo was anarchist first and he's a commie. I'm not a red anarchist however the f* that works like he is.
  11. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    05 May '12 23:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    This was an interesting CNN article about Ron Paul and the spirit of his campaign:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/04/opinion/stanley-ron-paul/index.html

    My question is: what do you think will be the trajectory of libertarianism, in the next few decades, as a faction of the GOP or as a blossoming third-party movement?

    Please note that I, like the auth conservatism. If you don't, that's fine, but at least make that clear in your discussion.
    Clearly you're referring to the somewhat warped American version of libertarianism (which I'd rather label anarcho-capitalism or "the Wild West" ), which means something altogether different from, say, European flavors of libertarianism (largely anarcho-socialism).
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    06 May '12 00:15
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Clearly you're referring to the somewhat warped American version of libertarianism (which I'd rather label anarcho-capitalism or "the Wild West" ), which means something altogether different from, say, European flavors of libertarianism (largely anarcho-socialism).
    No, the most common American libertarianism is more like Laissez-faire libertarianism, which is not anarchistic nor is it socialistic.
  13. 06 May '12 01:44
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    In recent decades we have seen religion on a decline in the industrialized world. Perhaps this is a symptom of a general trend where reason is becoming more prominent in popular ideologies. If this is indeed the case then one would also expect libertarianism to go in decline on the long term.
    You see a conflict between reason and libertarianism?
  14. 06 May '12 01:55
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No, the most common American libertarianism is more like Laissez-faire libertarianism, which is not anarchistic nor is it socialistic.
    Yes, I agree. The libertarian party typically gets 1 or 2% of the presidential vote. The problem is that among those professing to be libertarians, and I am one, if you had ten in a room, they would debate more intensely than a mixed room of die hard liberals and conservatives.

    The founders were all classical liberals, modern libertarians, however they differed often harshly on the limits placed on government, while recognizing that anarchy would never last, and the most likely result would be despotism.

    Ayn Rand is often listed among the most prominent libertarians, but she and most of her followers will deny any connection to libertarianism.

    I think there are strong libertarian factions in both the Democrat and Republican parties, the strongest being fiscally libertarian Republicans, many of whom support Ron Paul. The real problem for libertarians in a political sense is that they want government to do little, but most people expect and want government to do much, having a what's in it for me attitude.
  15. 06 May '12 03:23 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    This was an interesting CNN article about Ron Paul and the spirit of his campaign:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/04/opinion/stanley-ron-paul/index.html

    My question is: what do you think will be the trajectory of libertarianism, in the next few decades, as a faction of the GOP or as a blossoming third-party movement?

    Please note that I, like the auth conservatism. If you don't, that's fine, but at least make that clear in your discussion.
    I think the modern day liberal is the closest thing to molding statism and libertarianism, and as such the only way it can survive because statism seems to be the natural order of things. So to abandon statism is really to abandon a viable third party in my view. Both parties in the US are Big Government parties really. Men will always seek to control the purse strings, but in the example of the modern day liberal, the pay off libertarian wise is that the populace can do whatever they wish to do sexually. So pay your taxes and obey are never ending regulations and we will give you free rubbers and abortions and marry your brother and sister I suppose. My only question is, why would you need free abortions if you had free rubbers?

    Of course, the sad part is that the spirit of libertarianism resides within us all, never to be realized, kinda like watching a dog chase its tail.