Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
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    21 Mar '19 14:22
    I haven't been around these forums for a bit, but isn't anyone concerned this guy declared himself president without being elected? Isn't anyone concerned that Trump backing such a guy is simply (yet another) form of a U.S. backed coup in South America?

    Whenever Trump supports someone, that is immediately cause for alarm:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/venezuela-guaido-working-restore-ties-israel-190213060829530.html

    Self-declared president says he's also open to relocating Venezuela's embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.


    And there we have it. Trump is supporting a man whose supports his own agenda. This is a coup attempt; just because it's not as outwardly violent as Allende or the U.S.' other deplorable in acts in Central and South America, that doesn't make it any less of what it is: an attempt to replace a government's elected leader with one approved by the U.S.

    Though Maduro's most recent election is quite arguably a sham, that doesn't change the fact that he first rose to power through legal and ethical means, being the hand-picked successor to the immensely beloved Chavez.

    I admit, I don't know much about Guaido. What I do know is that this guy is very charismatic , young for a politician, and is playing on the emotions of Venezuelan citizens. I can't help but feel this guy is more interested in grabbing power not for the Venezuelan citizens, but for himself.
  2. Joined
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    21 Mar '19 14:56
    @vivify said
    I haven't been around these forums for a bit, but isn't anyone concerned this guy declared himself president without being elected? Isn't anyone concerned that Trump backing such a guy is simply (yet another) form of a U.S. backed coup in South America?

    Whenever Trump supports someone, that is immediately cause for alarm:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/venezuel ...[text shortened]... feel this guy is more interested in grabbing power not for the Venezuelan citizens, but for himself.
    Somewhere along the line it was reported that Guaido’s appointment to the presidency by the National Assembly was in keeping with their constitution. Maybe someone more familiar than I am with this can comment.
  3. Joined
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    21 Mar '19 16:32
    @vivify said
    I haven't been around these forums for a bit, but isn't anyone concerned this guy declared himself president without being elected? Isn't anyone concerned that Trump backing such a guy is simply (yet another) form of a U.S. backed coup in South America?

    Whenever Trump supports someone, that is immediately cause for alarm:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/venezuel ...[text shortened]... feel this guy is more interested in grabbing power not for the Venezuelan citizens, but for himself.
    "Though Maduro's most recent election is quite arguably a sham, that doesn't change the fact that he first rose to power through legal and ethical means, being the hand-picked successor to the immensely beloved Chavez. "

    I have never had anyone successfully show that any recent election in Venezuela is a sham. Most people believe that because that is what they have been hearing from certain government officials. They only say it though. They never show it because it is likely untrue.

    YouTube&fbclid=IwAR1SosCkGz7KYASx6e_xkbXLdavJNcmj3iha6o3TE5VYEhYzNJxq60dwnmY

    Guaido is a hand picked dictator chosen to replace Maduro because he will serve US interests. Maduro was democratically elected just like Chavez was. Kissinger just likes to advise presidents to overthrow democracies like he always has. The US government simply has no respect for democracy and prefers puppet dictators like the Shah and Pinochet. This is just a continuation of of that policy.

    Empires are like organized crime. People need to stop thinking of imperialism as something legitimate when it is just as unethical as organized crime. Dr. Evil Kissinger is no less ruthless than a Gambino, he is just above the law. He received the 1973 Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the Medal of Liberty. It is a perversion of justice for a man who should have been executed decades ago.
  4. Joined
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    21 Mar '19 16:46
    @js357 said
    Somewhere along the line it was reported that Guaido’s appointment to the presidency by the National Assembly was in keeping with their constitution. Maybe someone more familiar than I am with this can comment.
    Presidents are supposed to be elected by the people, not appointed by the national assembly. How can that possibly be constitutional? That would be like appointing Nancy Pelosi as president. I have suggested that happen because Trump and Pence are conspiring to overthrow a democracy and replace it with a dictatorship. Nobody believes the truth though. Nobody can accept the truth over a lie when the lie is repeated enough, especially from high government officials. People cannot bring themselves to accept high government officials are as corrupt as people in organized crime. It is the incredulity. It seems too incredible to be true, though everything points to it being that way. Remember Iraq's WMDs? Most Americans still think that was an honest mistake by our unintelligent intelligence agency.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Mar '19 17:49
    @metal-brain said
    Presidents are supposed to be elected by the people, not appointed by the national assembly. How can that possibly be constitutional? That would be like appointing Nancy Pelosi as president. I have suggested that happen because Trump and Pence are conspiring to overthrow a democracy and replace it with a dictatorship. Nobody believes the truth though. Nobody can accept th ...[text shortened]... MDs? Most Americans still think that was an honest mistake by our unintelligent intelligence agency.
    I have no doubt T and P would try for a dictatorship here but they will have to contend with the democratic house and the supreme court which may not go along with their wishes even if they got Kavanaugh in place, it didn't work for Nixon when he tried to buck congress and it won't work for Trump either.
    It could go down to a military takeover of both houses of congress AND the SCOTUS but god help us if that ever happened. Civil war #2. If push came to shove, and Trump tried to use the military to take over the government, I think the generals would say get lost, and put HIM under arrest for treason. The generals don't think much of Trump.
  6. Zugzwang
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    21 Mar '19 19:03
    @vivify said
    I haven't been around these forums for a bit, but isn't anyone concerned this guy declared himself president without being elected? Isn't anyone concerned that Trump backing such a guy is simply (yet another) form of a U.S. backed coup in South America?

    Whenever Trump supports someone, that is immediately cause for alarm:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/venezuel ...[text shortened]... feel this guy is more interested in grabbing power not for the Venezuelan citizens, but for himself.
    "I haven't been around these forums for a bit, but isn't anyone concerned this
    guy declared himself president without being elected?"
    --Vivify

    Yes, in earlier threads, this was criticized by writers such as MetalBrain and No1Marauder.
  7. Joined
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    21 Mar '19 22:44
    @metal-brain said
    Presidents are supposed to be elected by the people, not appointed by the national assembly. How can that possibly be constitutional? That would be like appointing Nancy Pelosi as president. I have suggested that happen because Trump and Pence are conspiring to overthrow a democracy and replace it with a dictatorship. Nobody believes the truth though. Nobody can accept th ...[text shortened]... MDs? Most Americans still think that was an honest mistake by our unintelligent intelligence agency.
    It is in the Venezuela constitution.

    Quote:

    According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

    Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before taking office, a new election shall take place (...) And while the president is elected and takes office, the interim president shall be the president of the National Assembly.”

    Antonio Ecarri, a constitutional lawyer and vice president of the opposition party Democratic Action (Accion Democratica) said that article 233 could be used because the absence is due to the “usurpation of the presidential office, which has left the position empty.”

    Furthermore, article 333 says that the constitution “shall not lose validity if it ceases to be observed by an act of force or its repeal.” In this case, “every citizen will have the duty to collaborate for the re-establishment of its effective validity.”

    https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/27/is-it-legal-for-juan-guaido-to-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president
  8. Standard membervivify
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    22 Mar '19 02:551 edit
    @js357 said
    It is in the Venezuela constitution.

    Quote:

    According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

    Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before ta ...[text shortened]... w.euronews.com/2019/01/27/is-it-legal-for-juan-guaido-to-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president
    The main problem with this is, as the article also mentions, Guaido didn't declare himself "interim president". He declared himself simply "president". Furthermore, other nations such as Canada, the U.S. and several other Latin/South American countries have formally recognized Guaido as president, not an interim politician.

    Had Guaido made it clear that he only wants temporary power in order to have a fair election, that would be different; this is not at all what he's doing. He has asserted himself as Venezuela's leader for the future.

    This is a coup.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    22 Mar '19 07:10
    @metal-brain said
    Presidents are supposed to be elected by the people, not appointed by the national assembly. How can that possibly be constitutional? That would be like appointing Nancy Pelosi as president. I have suggested that happen because Trump and Pence are conspiring to overthrow a democracy and replace it with a dictatorship. Nobody believes the truth though. Nobody can accept th ...[text shortened]... MDs? Most Americans still think that was an honest mistake by our unintelligent intelligence agency.
    I bet you think that Alex Jones is an under-appreciated genius.
  10. Joined
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    22 Mar '19 07:44
    @suzianne said
    I bet you think that Alex Jones is an under-appreciated genius.
    Nope. Alex Jones is a Trump supporter and a traitor to his own cause. I don't like him at all.
  11. Joined
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    22 Mar '19 07:46
    @js357 said
    It is in the Venezuela constitution.

    Quote:

    According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

    Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before ta ...[text shortened]... w.euronews.com/2019/01/27/is-it-legal-for-juan-guaido-to-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president
    “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before taking office, a new election shall take place (...) And while the president is elected and takes office, the interim president shall be the president of the National Assembly.”

    When was Maduro absent? Was he getting a sandwich and missed it? What is your source of info?
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Mar '19 15:11
    @js357 said
    It is in the Venezuela constitution.

    Quote:

    According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

    Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before ta ...[text shortened]... w.euronews.com/2019/01/27/is-it-legal-for-juan-guaido-to-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president
    Here's the complete provision:

    Article 233: The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.

    When an elected President becomes permanently unavailable to serve prior to his inauguration, a new election by universal suffrage and direct ballot shall be held within 30 consecutive days. Pending election and inauguration of the new President, the President of the National Assembly shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

    When the President of the Republic becomes permanently unavailable to serve during the first four years of this constitutional term of office, a new election by universal suffrage and direct ballot shall be held within 30 consecutive days. Pending election and inauguration of the new President, the Executive Vice-President shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

    In the cases describes above, the new President shall complete the current constitutional term of office. If the President becomes permanently unavailable to serve during the last two years of his constitutional term of office, the Executive Vice-President shall take over the Presidency of the Republic until such term is completed.

    https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5

    I see no legitimate argument that Maduro is "permanently unavailable" under the terms of the Article.
  13. Standard membervivify
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    22 Mar '19 16:45
    @no1marauder said
    Here's the complete provision:

    Article 233: The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with t ...[text shortened]... see no legitimate argument that Maduro is "permanently unavailable" under the terms of the Article.
    Thanks for this.

    Also, Maduro wasn't found by a court to have run a sham election. So even if his reason for declaring himself president were legitimate (it isn't), he still wouldn't have legal basis to do so.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Mar '19 16:521 edit
    @vivify said
    Thanks for this.

    Also, Maduro wasn't found by a court to have run a sham election. So even if his reason for declaring himself president were legitimate (it isn't), he still wouldn't have legal basis to do so.
    There were certainly problems with the 2018 election; some major opposition figures were barred from running for various reasons. The opposition then made the rather foolish decision to boycott an election they might well as won even with somewhat lesser known candidates.
  15. Germany
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    22 Mar '19 17:03
    @no1marauder said
    There were certainly problems with the 2018 election; some major opposition figures were barred from running for various reasons. The opposition then made the rather foolish decision to boycott an election they might well as won even with somewhat lesser known candidates.
    Or they might have lost an unfair election, legitimizing Maduro's victory.
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