So, what do you folks think of this guy? Here he is, a German citizen living in Munich, minding his own, when one day in December 2003, he makes a perfectly legal trip to Macedonia. CIA agents abduct him there, whisk him away to Kabul (in Bush-speak, that's an "extraordinary rendition"😉, where he gets himself tortured. The CIA operatives, in their wisdom, realize that they have the wrong guy (FIVE MONTHS LATER), fly him to Albania and release him, informing him that he was siezed in a case of mistaken identity. German Chancellor Merkel announced that the US has acknowledged "making a mistake with el-Masri."
point 1: A misTAKE ?? E before I in spelling is a mistake. What those agents did was a crime against humanity.
point 2🙁and this is the biggie)--US authorities (Bush et. al.) have informed Merkel that they will NOT extradite the 13 agents implicated in kidnapping this innocent man. This speaks volumes about Bush and his belief that he (and those close to him) need not accept responsibility for his/their actions. You want to toughen up the laws because of 9/11? Get stricter with travel? Even tap phones? Okay--be my guest. But when it comes back and bites you in the ass, stand up and take your lumps. We screwed the pooch here, and when you screw the pooch, you should stand trial for sodomy. It's as simple as that. Even the Mossad agents who killed Ahmed Bouchiki (remember-the innocent Norwegian?) because they "mistakenly" ID'ed him as a Munich Olympics assassin, were sort of held accountable. (5 of the 15 charged with the killing did time in Norway, though not nearly enough; pressure from the Israeli gov't got those five pieces of crap pardoned). But you get the idea--Bush is saying by these actions that, since we are at war with terrorism, these "slip-ups" are forgivable. Bush, I say, is wrong.
Originally posted by PinkFloydWas a mistake ... unfortunate but a mistake. Pay the guy some compensation and am sure he'd at least partially satisified.
So, what do you folks think of this guy? Here he is, a German citizen living in Munich, minding his own, when one day in December 2003, he makes a perfectly legal trip to Macedonia. CIA agents abduct him there, whisk him away to Kabul (in Bush-speak, that's an "extraordinary rendition"😉, where he gets himself tortured. The CIA operatives, in their wisdo ...[text shortened]... are at war with terrorism, these "slip-ups" are forgivable. Bush, I say, is wrong.
By the way, this guy is now facing charges for attacking a convenience story in Germany by pouring several cans of gasoline in/around the store and setting it on fire causing 500000 Euros worth of damage.
His lawyer is claiming its the result of his captivity. I guess it was run by the CIA and he was getting his revenge
Originally posted by PinkFloydThis was a mistake against 1 person, possibly a crime against 1 person, but certainly not a crime against humanity.
So, what do you folks think of this guy? Here he is, a German citizen living in Munich, minding his own, when one day in December 2003, he makes a perfectly legal trip to Macedonia. CIA agents abduct him there, whisk him away to Kabul (in Bush-speak, that's an "extraordinary rendition"😉, where he gets himself tortured. The CIA operatives, in their wisdo ...[text shortened]... are at war with terrorism, these "slip-ups" are forgivable. Bush, I say, is wrong.
A mistake, but only if you accept the principle that any citizen of any country can be adbucted from anywhere in the world and held incommunicado ie detention without trial, which is a no-no if any other country does it. If it wasn't a government, this would be called kidnapping. What's the penalty for that in the USA?
These are the acts of totalitarianism, not democracy.
Originally posted by buffalobillExcuse me if my heartstrings are not tugged by this fellow’s sad tale.
A mistake, but only if you accept the principle that any citizen of any country can be adbucted from anywhere in the world and held incommunicado ie detention without trial, which is a no-no if any other country does it. If it wasn't a government, this would be called kidnapping. What's the penalty for that in the USA?
These are the acts of totalitarianism, not democracy.
First: It is ALLEGED he was tortured. Would anyone expect him to claim otherwise? It is a way to strike back for his internment.
Secondly: The Republic of Macedonia border officials not the CIA detained him. Why? His name was identical to that of Khalid al-Masri, mentor to the al-Qaeda Hamburg cell and because of suspicion that his German passport was a forgery. After they finished his interrogation, Macedonia contacted the head of the al Qaeda division of the CIA's Counter-terrorism Center with the suspicion he was involved in terrorism.
What type fellow is el-Masri?
First: He based his application for German asylum on his membership in Al-Tawhid which means "movement for monotheism and holy war". We are all familiar with the term “Holy War” and what it means.
Secondly: He obtained citizenship through a “marriage of convienence” quickly followed by divorce. Not an “above-board” method for a good boy who is “just minding his own.”
If anyone is expecting shock and outrage at this, I think they missed the news stories where terrorists decapitate prisoners.
It's not a justification issue. Every power nation has a dirty deeds program to carry out this kind of thing, so, whatever.
I think the deeper problem here is why is the CIA still using torture?
In many ways it could be argued to be worse than killing the prisoner from a Psychological perspective. It tears down and destroys the individual's ability to cope with reality.
Moreover; is torture an effective tool for data extraction?
The US agreed to obey the Geneva Conventions last year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/11/AR2006071100094.html
So, hopefully this will not happen to him again :\
so as long as no one is tortured, then kidnapping them and holding them without trial or evidence is okay? (especially if the detained was determined by some unknown source to be a "bad guy"??)
I agree with buffalobil: this is an act of totalitarianism. toss another dead canary on the growing pile as we venture further into in this endless War on Terror mineshaft.
Originally posted by Darth Spongetorture 😠
so as long as no one is tortured, then kidnapping them and holding them without trial or evidence is okay? (especially if the detained was determined by some unknown source to be a "bad guy"??)
I agree with buffalobil: this is an act of totalitarianism. toss another dead canary on the growing pile as we venture further into in this endless War on Terror mineshaft.
kidnapping 😏
Originally posted by mdhallI have heard talk of this torture for a long time. Do you have any instances that are not hear-say. Please don't bring up the naked guys at Abu-gets-Grabed. Worse exposure than that occurs at parties. 🙂
[b]If anyone is expecting shock and outrage at this, I think they missed the news stories where terrorists decapitate prisoners.
I think the deeper problem here is why is the CIA still using torture?
Moreover; is torture an effective tool for data extraction?
Pay the guy some compensation and am sure he'd at least partially satisified.Very well, but since he's not here, I vote that I speak for him. Let's see--for loss of liberty, subjection to torture & physical injuries (yeah--I take kidnap victims at their word on that kind of thing; what's the alternative? To believe Bush's words that "we don't torture"?), mental anguish, and punitive damages for dumping him in Albania, I put the price tag at 8.75 trillion dollars, American, paid in gold.
Short version: There are not enough precious metals in Fort Knox to pay the debt owed to el-Masri.
Originally posted by MacSwainyou neglected to answer my question: why is it okay for the US- or any govt to kidnap people? since you give kidnapping a smiley face, I am guessing you are for it. why so?
I have heard talk of this torture for a long time. Do you have any instances that are not hear-say. Please don't bring up the naked guys at Abu-gets-Grabed. Worse exposure than that occurs at parties. 🙂
What I do when I read responses to this type of thing by our American friends on this forum is I think WWTRD?
What Would The Rednecks Do?
What would the US do if a US citizen, suspected of being a CIA agent, doling out guns, ammo and funding for rebel groups that are against the Islamic 'regime' in a place like Iran, was 'detained' for questioning?
They would turn that heap of sand into a god-damned glass crater, that's what. OOH-RA!