21 Jul 20
@ponderable saidI would suggest that most people that are center are to scared to open their mouths for fear of being " labled " . Such is the way of the modern " left ".
It seems that at least in US politics there is no center anymore. people seem to be quite extreme and won't accept anything than their own point.
Where is a Center Position which people of both sides could agree to be reasonable?
I am a firm "centrist". most people do realize that the world "seems" to be dominated by the extremists. They only dominate the narrative. I would ignore them but they are gaining power, that is not their due.
Other than that your question seems far to broad.
21 Jul 20
@jimmac saidSo please narrow the Question down.
I would suggest that most people that are center are to scared to open their mouths for fear of being " labled " . Such is the way of the modern " left ".
I am a firm "centrist". most people do realize that the world "seems" to be dominated by the extremists. They only dominate the narrative. I would ignore them but they are gaining power, that is not their due.
Other than that your question seems far to broad.
@ponderable saidit would be nice to be in a position of having an opposing opinion without gaining one of the new invented labels. Seeing so many here being called so many names that the self declared righteous feel so entitled to use is tedious. The term racist, for example, is bandied around like confetti so much that I am not sure what it means anymore, and my 1st instinct is to ignore and doubt its sincerity, or at least its reality.
So please narrow the Question down.
I know that this does not answer your question but the answer to that is none for the above mentioned reason.
Both sides are so full of self righteous di*ks that they cannot listen.
It would have to be something completely benign, like, do you think it might rain today, next week would be a debate that would bring forth even more labels. they are all to stupid to listen.
I am of course referring to farish left and right.
21 Jul 20
@ponderable saidwhat are you talking about? The majority of the democrat party is center, even center right.
It seems that at least in US politics there is no center anymore. people seem to be quite extreme and won't accept anything than their own point.
Where is a Center Position which people of both sides could agree to be reasonable?
Sanders would be considered centrist in every civilized country.
Did you at any point think Obama is a leftist?
21 Jul 20
@zahlanzi saidIn fact the defintion of "Center" , "left" and "Right" is not very clear. From a German perspective Obama was "Center" for sure, but I don't observe a spirit of "on the one hand, on the other hand" here.
what are you talking about? The majority of the democrat party is center, even center right.
Sanders would be considered centrist in every civilized country.
Did you at any point think Obama is a leftist?
21 Jul 20
@ponderable saidi am not talking about the public's incorrect perspective. I don't care that Canadians don't think 5 degrees celsius is that cold because they get -30 at some points.
In fact the defintion of "Center" , "left" and "Right" is not very clear. From a German perspective Obama was "Center" for sure, but I don't observe a spirit of "on the one hand, on the other hand" here.
You look at policies. At what laws are getting proposed and supported. The objective truth is that economically, there is nothing left about what Pelosi or Shumer are proposing. Socially they are a bit left of the center but nothing extreme (just the way the DNC likes it)
"but I don't observe a spirit of "on the one hand, on the other hand" here."
If you're talking about compromise, that's a huge mistake. You don't call someone "center" when they are between the extreme right that the republican party has become and the centrist democratic party. You don't call Sanders "extreme left" just because he is left of the very centrist DNC.
Who do you think was "extreme left" in nazi Germany? Between Lenin, Trotzky and Stalin who was the "extreme left", who was the extreme right?
You look at the situation objectively and you call things as they are, not as they are perceived. Otherwise words have no meaning. Like it happened in the US, where a politician like Sanders is considered extreme left and "bolshevik" for proposing policies that no conservative right winger would dream of opposing in Canada, Germany, France, etc.
21 Jul 20
@ponderable saidLove this thread, but I think 'left-centre-right' thinking gets into real difficulties, especially on an international site, since everything is relative.
In fact the defintion of "Center" , "left" and "Right" is not very clear. From a German perspective Obama was "Center" for sure, but I don't observe a spirit of "on the one hand, on the other hand" here.
In Liverpool in the 70s and 80s you had a very left wing city council and a council leader linked to the Militant Tendency that the Labour Party would expel as too far left. The Labour Party was to the right of the city council. The American Democrats would be placed to the right of Labour but referred to as the left in that country etc.
I think it is clearer if you stick to political goals. That works for me as follows:
If you are committed to economic growth regardless of whether it only benefits the few and regardless of the education, health and welfare needs of the next generation who do not chose where they are born you are too far right.
If you believe in simply pouring money into the education, health and welfare needs of the next generation regardless of whether that is economically sustainable and regardless of how that money is actually used within public services (management and bureaucrats versus actual coal face workers, money going to the wrong places etc) you are too far left.
If you are a centrist you are prepared to take on the difficult problem of a sound economic strategy that genuinely benefits the next generation of our species and makes the economy work for them as opposed to making everybody suffer for the sake of an economy that will only ever benefit the few.
I think it is a shame that there are very few serious centre politicians apparent. Maybe that is because it is easier to gain power and further your career, by climbing to the top of one of the tribes that dominate your country, by perpetuating division and whipping up tribal rivalries. Too many politicians are more interested in power than taking on the harder puzzle that is found in the centre.
21 Jul 20
@earl-of-trumps saidWas it choosing sides that ended the Cold War or was it realising the futility of it and backing down that brought perspective to the arms race? The realization that if everything stayed that extreme everybody would be destroyed seemed to do more good than each side simply blaming the other side for escalating it.
I agree with the OP, the two sides have been at cold war and one must choose sides.
I know this will be challenged but in my mind, it is without doubt the left that
has driven for division in America. It worked.
@petewxyz said:-) Pete, it is very difficult for me to grasp an analogy with the cold war and
Was it choosing sides that ended the Cold War or was it realising the futility of it and backing down that brought perspective to the arms race? The realization that if everything stayed that extreme everybody would be destroyed seemed to do more good than each side simply blaming the other side for escalating it.
America's social divisions.
I know one thing, I'm glad lefties don't have the nuke bomb lol
21 Jul 20
@jimmac saidNo your a firm right winger trying to squat on the center in order to claim it as your own thus implying that any opinion that is left of yours is an extreme opinion. Nice try though.
I would suggest that most people that are center are to scared to open their mouths for fear of being " labled " . Such is the way of the modern " left ".
I am a firm "centrist". most people do realize that the world "seems" to be dominated by the extremists. They only dominate the narrative. I would ignore them but they are gaining power, that is not their due.
Other than that your question seems far to broad.
21 Jul 20
1 edit
@earl-of-trumps saidI'm using your analogy from your previous post?!?
:-) Pete, it is very difficult for me to grasp an analogy with the cold war and
America's social divisions.
I know one thing, I'm glad lefties don't have the nuke bomb lol
@earl-of-trumps said
"I agree with the OP, the two sides have been at cold war and one must choose sides"
21 Jul 20
@petewxyz said“ I think it is a shame that there are very few serious centre politicians apparent. ”
Love this thread, but I think 'left-centre-right' thinking gets into real difficulties, especially on an international site, since everything is relative.
In Liverpool in the 70s and 80s you had a very left wing city council and a council leader linked to the Militant Tendency that the Labour Party would expel as too far left. The Labour Party was to the right of the city ...[text shortened]... liticians are more interested in power than taking on the harder puzzle that is found in the centre.
Are there though? Take the UK, I think they are out there but they are split into the Tory left or wets and the Labour right or Blair’ites, If you add most of the Lib Dem’s and SNP I would say they’d make up,the majority of MPs
“ Maybe that is because it is easier to gain power and further your career, by climbing to the top of one of the tribes that dominate your country, by perpetuating division and whipping up tribal rivalries”
Yeah your right this is the problem. We, the voters are too easily shepherded into tribal political pens especially when any kind of election looms.