Originally posted by ScriabinThe pope is a political figure in the way that he is the leader of a city-state, but that doesn't make him a politician.
Do you see the Papacy, even today, as other than a temporal authority?
What would convince you that the Pope is, in fact, a political as well as a religious figure of some significance?
The queen of england for example, is a political figure, but not a politician.
Originally posted by generalissimoBut KazetNagorra and I have mentioned loads and loads of other things. Are you rejecting them all out of hand?
The pope is a political figure in the way that he is the leader of a city-state, but that doesn't make him a politician.
Are you absolutely sure the Pope isn't a politician?
Originally posted by generalissimoDo you know what the net worth is, in economic terms , of the Catholic Church -- (Instituto per le Opere di Religione)?
The church is a religious institution, unlike the republican party.
Prof. Thomas J. Reese, an American Vatican expert from Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University, in his book, "Inside the Vatican" (Harvard UniversityPress, 1996 <www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674932...
examines the finances of the Vatican (For the Chapter on Vatican finances see pp. 202-229).
Originally posted by KazetNagorraDo we know the organization of that which the Papacy administers?
Neither is the administration of the Catholic Church.
according to the ever questionable but convenient Wiki:
quote
The Pope governs the Catholic Church through the Roman Curia. The Roman Curia consists of a complex of offices that administer church affairs at the highest level, including the Secretariat of State, nine Congregations, three Tribunals, eleven Pontifical Councils, and seven Pontifical Commissions. The Secretariat of State, under the Cardinal Secretary of State, directs and coordinates the Curia. The current incumbent, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, is the See's equivalent of a prime minister. Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, Secretary of the Section for Relations with States of the Secretariat of State, acts as the Holy See's foreign minister. Bertone and Mamberti were named in their respective roles by Pope Benedict XVI in September 2006.
The Secretariat of State is the only body of the Curia that is situated within Vatican City. The others are in buildings in different parts of Rome that have extraterritorial rights similar to that of embassies.
Among the most active of the major Curial institutions are the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which oversees the Catholic Church's doctrine; the Congregation for Bishops, which coordinates the appointment of bishops worldwide; the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, which oversees all missionary activities; and the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, which deals with international peace and social issues.
Three tribunals are responsible for judicial power. The Sacra Rota is responsible for normal appeals, including decrees of nullity for marriages, with the Apostolic Signatura being the administrative court of appeal and highest ecclesiastical court. The Apostolic Penitentiary is different from those two and, instead of dealing with contentious cases, issues absolutions, dispensations, and indulgences.
The Prefecture for the Economic Affairs of the Holy See coordinates the finances of the Holy See departments and supervises the administration of all offices, whatever be their degree of autonomy, that manage these finances. The most important of these is the Administration of the Patrimony of the Apostolic See.
The Prefecture of the Papal Household is responsible for the organization of the papal household, audiences, and ceremonies (apart from the strictly liturgical part).
The Holy See does not dissolve upon a Pope's death or resignation. It instead operates under a different set of laws sede vacante. During this interregnum, the heads of the dicasteries of the Roman Curia (such as the prefects of congregations) cease immediately to hold office, the only exceptions being the Major Penitentiary, who continues his important role regarding absolutions and dispensations, and the Cardinal Camerlengo, who administers the temporalities (i.e., properties and finances) of the See of St. Peter during this period. The government of the See, and therefore of the Catholic Church, then falls to the College of Cardinals. Canon law prohibits the College and the Camerlengo from introducing any innovations or novelties in the government of the Church during this period.
unquote
Originally posted by generalissimoCould you broaden your view for the sake of moving on with the argument's main subject line to the following?
A person who is active in party politics, or is in government.
The pope is more of a religious figure, and the example of the queen of england explains my point of view.
"A politician (from Greek "polis"😉 is an individual who is involved in influencing public decision making through the influence of politics or a person who influences the way a society is governed. This includes people who hold decision-making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d'état, appointment, electoral fraud, conquest, right of inheritance (see also: divine right) or other means. Politics are not limited to governance through public office. Political offices may also be held in corporations, and other entities that are governed by self-defined political processes."
Can we agree that the Pope does practice politics?
Originally posted by ScriabinCan we agree that the Pope does practice politics?
Could you broaden your view for the sake of moving on with the argument's main subject line to the following?
"A politician (from Greek "polis"😉 is an individual who is involved in influencing public decision making through the influence of politics or a person who influences the way a society is governed. This includes people who hold decision-making po ...[text shortened]... y self-defined political processes."
Can we agree that the Pope does practice politics?
Yes, I agree with you, however he is not a politician in the way FMF and kazetnagorra say he is.
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Originally posted by generalissimoAre you absolutely sure?
[The Pope] is not a politician in the way FMF and kazetnagorra say he is.
Me and kazetnagorra, we simply pointed out to you that the Pope practises politics.
And you agree that a politician is a person who practises politics.
What is this "way" of practising politics that you reckon kazetnagorra and I are mistaken about?
Originally posted by ScriabinYou, sir, are a dangerous radical. These crazed, seditious views will be emphatically rejected, if not in word, then in deed, by the vast majority of regular contriutors here. In the real, physical world you would never have made such a suggestion, for fear of the usual suspects putting aside their differences for a short time and marching on you with flaming torches and pitchforks...
Did I say or imply ALL posts were mere assertions of that limited, and not very interesting nature?
Would you be willing to accept the idea that I want to see debate according to more rational, reasonable and disinterested terms?
What would a debate be like here if all participants in a thread eschewed obfuscatory tacitics related to their own sense o ...[text shortened]... post, "well, I've heard that ... and I am convinced (or not) by that -- what do you thiink"?
Originally posted by FMFmust we belabor the point?
Are you absolutely sure?
Me and kazetnagorra, we simply pointed out to you that the Pope practises politics.
And you agree that a politician is a person who practises politics.
What is this "way" of practising politics that you reckon kazetnagorra and I are mistaken about?
is it that important to you, FMF, that someone else say that you are right and he is wrong?
why do you obstruct the progress of the discussion so?
and why do you use "me" when you should use "I?"
Is that what you meant by a common British usage?
Originally posted by DrKFIs it the Hemlock again?
You, sir, are a dangerous radical. These crazed, seditious views will be emphatically rejected, if not in word, then in deed, by the vast majority of regular contriutors here. In the real, physical world you would never have made such a suggestion, for fear of the usual suspects putting aside their differences for a short time and marching on you with flaming torches and pitchforks...
Do you know what a pain in the belly that is, not to mention where the pain really hits home?
Originally posted by ScriabinI must say, this still sounds like the Old Scriabin - struggling on the slippery rocks, as ever.
must we belabor the point? is it that important to you, FMF, that someone else say that you are right and he is wrong? why do you obstruct the progress of the discussion so? and why do you use "me" when you should use "I?" Is that what you meant by a common British usage?
Originally posted by generalissimoThe church doesn't teach that the people have the right to decide to believe anything contrary to what the church teaches. It talks about following your conscience, but for many people doing so can lead to excommunication. US politicians who are Roman Catholic have been informed in the past that their church status could be dependent upon how they voted for or against legislation that included hot-button items such as abortion and "gay marriage." For all we know, the pope may be ticked off that he can only meet with world leaders now and make speeches at them instead of still being allowed to select and install those leaders.
[b]If generalissimo thinks the Catholic Church doesn't have a clear political agenda and doesn't operate in the political domain, then he does not understand what politics is.
The church teaches what they think is right, its up to the people to decide whether or not to be agaisnt abortion and all the rest.
I think I understand more about politics than you ever will.[/b]
But yeah, generalissimo could look up politics in wiki and see that it includes religious institutions. Even if by some fluke no other religious organization was involved in politics, it would still be impossible to accurately claim that the RC church isn't.