As a "reluctant atheist" and a recovering mormon, there is one thing that really, really bothers me about Mitt Romney and his run for office.
Right up front, let me say that he is my choice and I will support him with money and effort because he is the closest thing to a non-demagogue that we have in the field.
Here is the part that bothers me: In Nevada, he got 95% of the Mormon vote. That just ain't right. Harry Reid is a Mormon and comes from Nevada i think. Harry never gets more than 5% of the Mormon vote. Why?
Why do Mormons (and evangelicals for Huckabee) lose their ability to judge secular issues when "their man" gets the chance at power?
All I can say is that it's a good thing that Romney is the best free-marketeer or I would have to think myself crazy for supporting him.
Originally posted by StarValleyWySo you think that the US should be run by a guy who thinks that Jesus Christ is going to return to earth to set up his kingdom in Misouri ? 😀
As a "reluctant atheist" and a recovering mormon, there is one thing that really, really bothers me about Mitt Romney and his run for office.
Right up front, let me say that he is my choice and I will support him with money and effort because he is the closest thing to a non-demagogue that we have in the field.
Here is the part that bothers me: I omney is the best free-marketeer or I would have to think myself crazy for supporting him.
We see eye to eye on most things ... not this one.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, I have a great advantage, being a recovering mormon and all. Mormons are quite capable of filtering out the dung and being very pragmatic. It is ok to believe just about anything, because they can find it in the super-set of scripture. For example... in the book of Alma it says that "man will be judged by his works, not by his words and beliefs". This gives license to the open notion of rebellion and not accepting the notions of others religious views as a given.
So you think that the US should be run by a guy who thinks that Jesus Christ is going to return to earth to set up his kingdom in Misouri ? 😀
We see eye to eye on most things ... not this one.
Besides, if Jesus decides to come back to earth, I can't see him fitting in very well anywhere. Missouri is as good a place as any. Isn't it?
Originally posted by StarValleyWyMost Mormons and Evangelicals are nice people. The problem is simple:
As a "reluctant atheist" and a recovering mormon, there is one thing that really, really bothers me about Mitt Romney and his run for office.
Right up front, let me say that he is my choice and I will support him with money and effort because he is the closest thing to a non-demagogue that we have in the field.
Here is the part that bothers me: I ...[text shortened]... omney is the best free-marketeer or I would have to think myself crazy for supporting him.
They are not willing to analyze their own beliefs in a more "objective" manner or outside of their own belief system. Therefore, they stick to their own.
Originally posted by mochironVery well said. That is why I am a "reluctant" atheist. It requires years of hard effort and ruthless self-honesty to admit that ones entire RELIGIOUS heritage is baseless. The truth that ones SOCIAL AND CULTURAL heritage is immensely valuable doesn't register for decades after the shock of separation. Then one slaps ones self in the head and one goes on with life. Trying to make it better.
Most Mormons and Evangelicals are nice people. The problem is simple:
They are not willing to analyze their own beliefs in a more "objective" manner or outside of their own belief system. Therefore, they stick to their own.
Also it is a brutally difficult realization -- to be associated with the "religion of atheism". These mindless toads are clueless.
edit... It is because I don't believe in the religion but DO believe in the mormon culture that I find no conflict in supporting Romney. The culture of mormonism is one of self-reliance. Taking responsibility in all ways for each and every action. Requiring strict self control in all circumstance. The fact that the religion is hooey means nothing. That it generates such a strong family oriented, civilized and kind culture says all that needs saying. And don't take me as an example. As I have said, I am a bit to the right of Atilla the Hun -- which is not something that a mormon would ever be. Their religion of kindness prevents that route. Which perhaps explains why I am an "ex" mormon.
Originally posted by StarValleyWy'As good a place' is not equivalent to 'the place'.
Well, I have a great advantage, being a recovering mormon and all. Mormons are quite capable of filtering out the dung and being very pragmatic. It is ok to believe just about anything, because they can find it in the super-set of scripture. For example... in the book of Alma it says that "man will be judged by his works, not by his words and beliefs". ...[text shortened]... I can't see him fitting in very well anywhere. Missouri is as good a place as any. Isn't it?
Anyway if a Mormon does actually filter out the 'dung' as you say, that means that they are no longer Mormon, because you no longer believe as your faith requires you to.
Originally posted by Rajk999That's the point. There are millions of ways to believe and all of them are right there in mormon scripture. EVERY single mormon has their own take on it. They THINK that they all believe the same thing, but none of them do. That is the genius of how they get so many converts. There is something for everyone. And unlike other religions, they know that there are only two things that will bring them to hell. One is to deny god AFTER going throught the mormon temple ceremonies and pledges. The other is.... and here is the genius of it all. The other is whatever the hell that person decides it is. I know that sounds weird. I guess you just have to be there.
'As good a place' is not equivalent to 'the place'.
Anyway if a Mormon does actually filter out the 'dung' as you say, that means that they are no longer Mormon, because you no longer believe as your faith requires you to.
Originally posted by StarValleyWyNow that I find hard to believe. Kinda the polar opposite of Islam.
That's the point. There are millions of ways to believe and all of them are right there in mormon scripture. EVERY single mormon has their own take on it. They THINK that they all believe the same thing, but none of them do. That is the genious of how they get so many converts. There is something for everyone. And unlike other religions, they know that ...[text shortened]... he hell that person decides it is. I know that sounds weird. I guess you just have to be there.
MR might be a good capitalist but I suspect he is not going to be strong on national security. Whats his stance on securing the US?
Here are the mormon articles of faith.
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and minister in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
a more thorough analysis is offered at:
http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1
Originally posted by Rajk999He and I disagree a lot on that. I want more-or-less open borders. He says that there is a "legal line. Go get in line and come in legally or get the hell out".
Now that I find hard to believe. Kinda the polar opposite of Islam.
MR might be a good capitalist but I suspect he is not going to be strong on national security. Whats his stance on securing the US?
I think this is a bit much. I want only those who would vote Democrat to be deported or shot. (grin)
He is for doing whatever needs doing to defeat islamo-fascists. He even dares use the proper term. He will not pull out before the job is done. I think that McCain would... in a minute. He wants only power. The giveaway is his statements on torture and Gitmo. He has no clue but is a panderer. And don't give me any crap about what a hero he is for screwing up a mission and getting shot down. The hero's were the ones who bombed the hell out of the commies and didn't get shot down miles off course. And they didn't let their aircraft bump into a generator and blow up a frickin' carrier like McCain did. (that's a not very amusing story in itself)
btw... I am being a bit facetious about the carrier. But here is a link to why I think Huckabee is worse than McCain... His hit men are all over the internet doing this stuff to McCain and Romney. edit... Ok. He's a commie, not a Hucklebee guy. Just seeing if you are paying attention. Ahem.
http://mattsteinglass.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/john-mccain-jonah/
Originally posted by StarValleyWyWell stated as well. I think If most people step "outside" their belief system and see the good and bad of it: AND: understand it , ARE better able to work with people of different beliefs and move on. Sad to say, A large Swathe of people of many Major religions are not willing to do that.
Very well said. That is why I am a "reluctant" atheist. It requires years of hard effort and ruthless self-honesty to admit that ones entire RELIGIOUS heritage is baseless. The truth that ones SOCIAL AND CULTURAL heritage is immensely valuable doesn't register for decades after the shock of separation. Then one slaps ones self in the head and one goes o ...[text shortened]... ligion of kindness prevents that route. Which perhaps explains why I am an "ex" mormon.
Originally posted by StarValleyWyyou forgot:
Here are the mormon articles of faith.
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordi ...[text shortened]... these things.
a more thorough analysis is offered at:
http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1
14. We believe in wearing magic underwear
Originally posted by duecerI didn't forget. The garments are part of the temple ceremonies. In taking the garments the wearer vows to obey and honor gods laws and in wearing the temple garments at all times, proposes a covenant with God to honor and obey him and to devote his/her life to goodness. That is kind of weird. But not as weird as not eating pigs fer cryin out loud.
you forgot:
14. We believe in wearing magic underwear
Originally posted by StarValleyWythe magic underwear, as well as most of the mormon temple rituals were directly lifted from masonic tradition, which, as a freemason I find amusing
I didn't forget. The garments are part of the temple ceremonies. In taking the garments the wearer vows to obey and honor gods laws and in wearing the temple garments at all times, proposes a covenant with God to honor and obey him and to devote his/her life to goodness. That is kind of weird. But not as weird as not eating pigs fer cryin out loud.
Originally posted by Rajk999I personally think Morman's are wrong in theology, but as a group they have more political sense than any other group. Personally, I'd be happy with a Mormon president.
So you think that the US should be run by a guy who thinks that Jesus Christ is going to return to earth to set up his kingdom in Misouri ? 😀
We see eye to eye on most things ... not this one.