Originally posted by mmanuelI have been there before. Several of us from RHP had countries there for a while. The game got a little repetative after a while and we all ended up quitting.
sounds good in theory.... wouldn't last ten minutes in reality
Rob, you should check out www.nationstates.net - see what kind of utopia you can create
Mark
Originally posted by rwingettPlease do not make it so high that I cannot afford to go on the airwaves. I was toying with the concept of something like the Naked News only with religious programing. Don't worry, no Tammy Faye as I want subscribers so as to increase your tax base.
Only if it was not included in basic cable. It would have to have a separate subscription rate.
It won't work. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE for it to work and it sounds great, on paper...
The problem is "dollars and cents". You won't have enough. With the government providing all of the services you've listed you'll need a government half as large as your total population. That would require 50% or more of your population to be government employees. Who's gonna pay taxes for all of those services?
Taxing corporations and the wealthy is a wonderful idea, but you're not going to have either of those in your country. Your private sector will consist mainly of small and medium sized businesses. You can't tax those heavily without severly hurting your economy. And without tax incentives (which is the opposite of what you're proposing) larger businesses are never going to start up or relocate to your nation.
As for your election cycles and the branches of governement and how they work - I really like it. That sounds plausible. Leaving out the "who's paying for it" problem of course. 🙂
Originally posted by wibAll the economic objections to my proposed system all sound like the same old blindly pro-capitalist arguments that people continually put forward as if they were on autopilot. It's as if they've been trained since birth to blindly regurgitate the pro-capitalist mantra that a society that provides a generous social safety net, and which has public ownership of basic utilities and services, is doomed to bankruptcy. If they dare to question that orthodoxy, they're given examples like the Soviet Union, or North Korea, to drive the point home.
It won't work. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE for it to work and it sounds great, on paper...
The problem is "dollars and cents". You won't have enough. With the government providing all of the services you've listed you'll need a government half as large as your total population. That would require 50% or more of your population to be government em ...[text shortened]... t sounds plausible. Leaving out the "who's paying for it" problem of course. 🙂
What if the Soviet Union hadn't bankrupted itself in its pursuit of the global arms race? What if they had renounced militarism altogether and put all thier resources into social spending? How does China pay for things? How much would they have to divert into social spending if they renounced militarism? But my system does not renounce capitalism like those examples. It provides a communal sector and a tightly controlled and regulated capitalist sector. Think of it as being somewhat like Israel with the Kibbutzim being much more prominent. How does any western democratic-socialist system pay for things? It clearly can be done.
Originally posted by rwingettUnfortunately I know almost nothing about Israel and or the Kibbutzim, so I'm pleading ignorance on that one.
All the economic objections to my proposed system all sound like the same old blindly pro-capitalist arguments that people continually put forward as if they were on autopilot. It's as if they've been trained since birth to blindly regurgitate the pro-capitalist mantra that a society that provides a generous social safety net, and which has public ownersh ...[text shortened]... inent. How does any western democratic-socialist system pay for things? It clearly can be done.
As for Russia spending themselves silly... Yes, they made a tremendous mistake, but they were motivated by fear and to some extent their own ignorance. Then again if I were them I wouldn't have trusted the U.S not to bomb the crap out of me either. Maybe they were right to be afraid?
"How does China pay for things?" They don't. They're poor. And due to their population getting poorer.
Here's all I'm saying in my original post. It's all about incentives. If businesses don't have them they don't have to play by your country's rules. They can simply move somewhere more favorable to them, or close up shop and take the jobs and tax revenue with them. Greed is a powerful motivator. Do I like it and agree with it? No. But at the end of the day someone has to pay the bills.
On the other hand if your country is printing it's own currency (the "Secdollar"?) then you can print all of the money you need and operate on a deficit forever. 🙂
Originally posted by rwingettJust interested in knowing if I got my own little plot of land allocated in return for paying rent to the commune or if I had no land and was told by the Federation of Egalitarian Communities Chairperson what I should do do each day. A bolshie fellow like me would probably spend most of my day cleaning out the pig pen.
Because they're managed collectively by all the members. The North Korean collective farms employ collective labor but are managed from the top down by an overarching communist party hierarchy. Secularian collectives will be egalitarian a ...[text shortened]... FEC) that exists in the US, and not after the North Korean model.
My ancestors probably spent most of their lives either paying rent to the Lord of the Manor or working as landless serfs on his Lordship's estate. Would have being able to vote for a new feudal master made their lives any easier?
Originally posted by steerpikeDespite claiming to be a "bolshie" you seem more than content to trot out the same old shopworn stereotypes of communal systems.
Just interested in knowing if I got my own little plot of land allocated in return for paying rent to the commune or if I had no land and was told by the Federation of Egalitarian Communities Chairperson what I should do do each day. A bolshie fellow like me would probably spend most of my day cleaning out the pig pen.
My ancestors probably spent most o ...[text shortened]... e. Would have being able to vote for a new feudal master made their lives any easier?
There is no private ownership of land in any community within the FEC. All land is held in common.
You don't pay rent. All living accomodations are provided by the community.
Each community sets its own labor quota (typically 40 hours). As long as they get their hours in, each member largely chooses what labor they will perform.
Each community is an autonomous unit that runs its own affairs. The FEC performs a strictly administrative function in providing some coordination between the various communities. They have no power to tell anyone what to do.
You seem to have great difficulty in conceptualizing a non-hierarchical, communal society in action, which is not surprising considering that you've been ingrained with a lifetime of capitalist lies and propoganda. But I assure you that such a society is not only possible, but that it does, in fact, work in practice.
Originally posted by kirksey957<giggle> No! <giggle, laugh, hee-haw!>
Please do not make it so high that I cannot afford to go on the airwaves. I was toying with the concept of something like the Naked News only with religious programing. Don't worry, no Tammy Faye as I want subscribers so as to increase your tax base.
Best post of the month, so far!
Hey Rob,
Very good post and discussion.
The most important person in your government is going to be the embassador to the WMF and the UN.
What are the qualifications for this person? Who assigns or elects the 'begger' of funds? I see many great similarities to the French model that they imposed on most of the Carribean when they left.
<edit> I am a bit harsh. I just want to point out that "idealists" don't USUALLY start businesses... usually. They are a bit adverse to risk. "Security" is after all, the reason for being. As per Nader and his hatred of automobiles. "You can get killed in these things!" etc. And the only rich ones (like George Soros who makes a living as a hedge fund manager) make their money betting against capitalism in the US Stock Market. Irony of Ironies. A commie who exploits the masses to help the masses.
Originally posted by StarValleyWyWTF - Soros is a Commie as well now.
Hey Rob,
Very good post and discussion.
The most important person in your government is going to be the embassador to the WMF and the UN.
What are the qualifications for this person? Who assigns or elects the 'begger' of funds? I see many great similarities to the French model that they imposed on most of the Carribean when they left.
<e ...[text shortened]... m in the US Stock Market. Irony of Ironies. A commie who exploits the masses to help the masses.
There's more of us than I thought.
We're all under your beds (metaphorically, of course).
Whooooooo. Spooky Commies everywhere, just waiting to appear and eat your children.
Nutcase.