Nations can apply for NATO membership, but they cannot become members unless all existing NATO members vote for it. This gives all existing NATO members veto power to exclude aspiring members. Is this resulting in blackmail?
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/orbans-victory-could-block-finlands-nato-aspirations/
Erdogan says Turkey does not support Finland and Sweden joining NATO. Why is he complaining when Turkey is a NATO member and has veto power to prevent it? Is he trying to get something in return for votes?
If not, why doesn't he just say Turkey will not allow them to become members? As an existing member of NATO Turkey has veto power. All existing NATO members do, right?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/erdogan-turkey-finland-sweden-nato-terrorist-organizations-152725529.html
@Metal-Brain - says
Why is he complaining when Turkey is a NATO member and has veto power to prevent it? Is he trying to get something in return for votes?
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Turkey is a close partner of both Russia and Ukraine, and is trying to broker a peace accord between the two and has hosted a number of high-profile negotiations between the two countries to accomplish that.
This is not the time for Turkey to be p1ssing off Russia.
@earl-of-trumps saidI'm pretty sure that ship[ sailed when Turkey became a NATO member and allowed the USA to put nukes there and started the Turk Missile Crisis, I mean the Cuban Missile Crisis. We are supposed to think the USSR and Cuba started it.
@Metal-Brain - says
Why is he complaining when Turkey is a NATO member and has veto power to prevent it? Is he trying to get something in return for votes?
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Turkey is a close partner of both Russia and Ukraine, and is trying to broker a peace accord between the two and has hosted a number of high-profile negotiations between the two countries to accomplish that.
This is not the time for Turkey to be p1ssing off Russia.
@metal-brain saidThat's as relevant to current conditions as the Turks joining WWI against Russia.
I'm pretty sure that ship[ sailed when Turkey became a NATO member and allowed the USA to put nukes there and started the Turk Missile Crisis, I mean the Cuban Missile Crisis. We are supposed to think the USSR and Cuba started it.
A reasonable guess would be that such an announcement is meant to dissuade Sweden and Finland from requesting NATO membership for fear it would exacerbate present tensions (which it surely will).
@metal-brain saidDo you ever read the posts on here, how many times have I posted that Russias ‘ Ukraine is joining NATO so we have to invade’ BS is BS because everyone knows that Ukraine would never get the unanimous 30 votes required to join.
Nations can apply for NATO membership, but they cannot become members unless all existing NATO members vote for it. This gives all existing NATO members veto power to exclude aspiring members. Is this resulting in blackmail?
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/orbans-victory-could-block-finlands-nato-aspirations/
Erdogan says Turkey does not support ...[text shortened]... https://www.yahoo.com/news/erdogan-turkey-finland-sweden-nato-terrorist-organizations-152725529.html
@no1marauder saidNo it’s because the authoritarian Turkish leader probably got a phone call from the authoritarian Russian leader. Let’s at least try to talk like grown ups.
That's as relevant to current conditions as the Turks joining WWI against Russia.
A reasonable guess would be that such an announcement is meant to dissuade Sweden and Finland from requesting NATO membership for fear it would exacerbate present tensions (which it surely will).
Turkey has been a lukewarm member of NATO at best and probably does not want to endanger its s-400 arrangement with Russia. I don’t know if its doable but I’d swap Turkey for Finland and Sweden because I do not trust Turkey to step up if push came to shove anyway. But I guess Turkey is important strategically.
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@metal-brain saidHahaha just read the link, one of the reasons Erdogan is giving for not allowing them to join is that they host terrorists and even let them join their parliament’s 🙄
Nations can apply for NATO membership, but they cannot become members unless all existing NATO members vote for it. This gives all existing NATO members veto power to exclude aspiring members. Is this resulting in blackmail?
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/orbans-victory-could-block-finlands-nato-aspirations/
Erdogan says Turkey does not support ...[text shortened]... https://www.yahoo.com/news/erdogan-turkey-finland-sweden-nato-terrorist-organizations-152725529.html
The link also mentions some membership rules that would allow NATO to disbar Turkey if it wanted to but I guess it’s a bit to strategically placed for that.
A host, probably the majority, of NATO members could make unilateral mutual defence pacts with the two countries which might amount to virtually the same thing.
@kevcvs57 saidI try but your constant paranoia and crackpot theories always seem to get in the way.
No it’s because the authoritarian Turkish leader probably got a phone call from the authoritarian Russian leader. Let’s at least try to talk like grown ups.
Turkey has been a lukewarm member of NATO at best and probably does not want to endanger its s-400 arrangement with Russia. I don’t know if its doable but I’d swap Turkey for Finland and Sweden because I do not trust Turkey to step up if push came to shove anyway. But I guess Turkey is important strategically.
Turkey has been in NATO for 70 years. True, it hasn't been as quick to join in the more recent aggressive military ventures of your so-called "defensive" alliance but outside of its People being a bit more swarthy than those in Finland and Sweden, I can't think of a single reason why a rational person would want them expelled from a military alliance.
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@no1marauder saidMaybe their treatment of minorities like the Kurds, Maybe Erdogan’s authoritarian stance on opposition parties.
I try but your constant paranoia and crackpot theories always seem to get in the way.
Turkey has been in NATO for 70 years. True, it hasn't been as quick to join in the more recent aggressive military ventures of your so-called "defensive" alliance but outside of its People being a bit more swarthy than those in Finland and Sweden, I can't think of a single reason why a rational person would want them expelled from a military alliance.
“ but outside of its People being a bit more swarthy than those in Finland and Sweden, I can't think of a single reason why a rational person would want them expelled from a military alliance.”
Oooh playing the race card he is, desperate he must be.
If you go to MBs link you’ll see why they are not optimum in terms of NATO membership, it’s seems you prefer Syrians and Iraqis to Kurds is there any reason for that.
See below A non pigmentation related difference between Turkey and Finland / Sweden.
Here I go getting paranoid again 🙄
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/key-opposition-leader-banned-from-politics-after-anti-erdogan-tweet?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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@earl-of-trumps saidTurkey is a close partner of Russia alone, and Erdogan is a great fangirl of Putin. He'll do anything he can to lick his posterior. The moment has nothing to do with it.
Turkey is a close partner of both Russia and Ukraine, and is trying to broker a peace accord between the two and has hosted a number of high-profile negotiations between the two countries to accomplish that.
This is not the time for Turkey to be p1ssing off Russia.
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@no1marauder saidOh, come off it.
I try but your constant paranoia and crackpot theories always seem to get in the way.
Turkey has been in NATO for 70 years. True, it hasn't been as quick to join in the more recent aggressive military ventures of your so-called "defensive" alliance but outside of its People being a bit more swarthy than those in Finland and Sweden, I can't think of a single reason why a rational person would want them expelled from a military alliance.
Turkey had been a welcome member of NATO for decades - until they elected Erdogan, who has, since gaining power, turned ever more autocratic, ever more islamist, ever more a murderer of journalists and jailer of political opponents ("dissidents", in your lingo), and ever less a friend of the West and more one of Putin, whom he greatly admires.
Now, Turkey is a member of NATO in name only. It's time for it to leave.
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@shallow-blue saidYeah, it's not like NATO ever tolerated repressive dictators. Here's a bit of history for you and kev; see Lesson 2. https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/how-to-deal-with-authoritarianism-inside-nato/
Oh, come off it.
Turkey had been a welcome member of NATO for decades - until they elected Erdogan, who has, since gaining power, turned ever more autocratic, ever more islamist, ever more a murderer of journalists and jailer of political opponents ("dissidents", in your lingo), and ever less a friend of the West and more one of Putin, whom he greatly admires.
Now, Turkey is a member of NATO in name only. It's time for it to leave.
This is like talking to children.
So it's like an open club with required unanimity .............................. except if one of the countries doesn't agree with the prevailing wisdom of the most powerful countries.
@shallow-blue saidIs there something in the NATO Charter that expressly forbids a member State having friendly relations with a country that the US, UK, Germany, etc. etc. etc. don't like?
Turkey is a close partner of Russia alone, and Erdogan is a great fangirl of Putin. He'll do anything he can to lick his posterior. The moment has nothing to do with it.
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@no1marauder saidYou must try to stop this strategy of claiming that anyone who does not agree with your partisan extremist viewpoint is somehow simple or an infant.
Yeah, it's not like NATO ever tolerated repressive dictators. Here's a bit of history for you and kev; see Lesson 2. https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/how-to-deal-with-authoritarianism-inside-nato/
This is like talking to children.
So it's like an open club with required unanimity .............................. except if one of the countries doesn't agree with the prevailing wisdom of the most powerful countries.
You seem to know very little about the wider world yet you strut around like some kind of specialist. You may think you know Europe and it’s history but you clearly do not know the first thing about what is a very complex geopolitical entity over two thousand years in the making. Europe did not begin in 1945, the Russian empire was a an anachronistic blip in the sociopolitical development of Europe not its default position. The days of European empire out with or within its boundaries are over and no nasty turd like toad in Moscow is going to create one.
Turkey is sitting on the fence regarding Moscow’s expansionist policies westward because the other obvious direction for Moscow is south. It was before you were born but Russia and Turkey have fought over Crimea before and will likely contend it again if Turkey felt it could get away with it. The Ottoman Empire as was pushed deep into the underbelly of Europe at one point, and there is no reason to think it wouldn’t do again if it could.
Russia with its idiotic imperial designs could throw Europe back into the same scenario that existed prior to WWI with roughly equal partisan camps just waiting to kick off.
NATO and the EU represent the best, possibly only, hope of ensuring Europe’s stability and the avoidance of reverting to a blood soaked patchwork of squabbling neighbours which has twice dragged the world into its psychopathy.
Yes NATO may have to tolerate some authoritarian partners riding along but it does not have to let them take the steering wheel.
If Turkey is siding with, or even sharing Putin’s expansionist agenda it’s best to cut them loose rather than be hobbled by them.
I don’t say that because they are swarthy I’m actually quite swarthy myself if I can catch a bit of sun stuck here in the North Sea.
@kevcvs57 saidI'm perfectly aware that Euros have spread death and misery worldwide for the last few thousand years at least.
You must try to stop this strategy of claiming that anyone who does not agree with your partisan extremist viewpoint is somehow simple or an infant.
You seem to know very little about the wider world yet you strut around like some kind of specialist. You may think you know Europe and it’s history but you clearly do not know the first thing about what is a very complex geop ...[text shortened]... e swarthy I’m actually quite swarthy myself if I can catch a bit of sun stuck here in the North Sea.
I just find it amusing that you give the same old imperialist explanations for how Russia and Turkey are now acting while choosing to believe that the motives of powerful Western nations (well, except the US) are as pure as the driven snow when they attack other nations to overthrow the governments there. When I call such beliefs "childish" it is because that is what they are.
Military alliances are what led to WWI and here you are banging your drums for war in service to another one - to defend a country not even in it. It's ironically stupid.