NATO Members Want Longer Ukraine War

@eintaluj said
You changed the theme of the discussion. We were not talking about starting a war, but about prolonging the war.

Yeah that’s right because the reasons for a war starting are totally irrelevant to how you get the war to stop.
Russia started the war by invading Ukraine, only Russia can stop the war by simply stopping the war it is waging on Ukraine. This really isn’t rocket science.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah that’s right because the reasons for a war starting are totally irrelevant to how you get the war to stop.
Russia started the war by invading Ukraine, only Russia can stop the war by simply stopping the war it is waging on Ukraine. This really isn’t rocket science.

The reasoning of a 5 year old.

How ridiculous for someone to assert that why a war started is irrelevant to ending it! You need to study your Clausewitz.

@metal-brain said
In an interview on Wednesday, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said some NATO member states want the war in Ukraine to last longer as a way to hurt Russia.

“There are countries within NATO who want the war to continue,” Cavusoglu told CNN Turk. “They want Russia to become weaker.”

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/04/21/turkey-says-some-nato-members-want-longer ...[text shortened]... t comes too early or at too high a cost to Kyiv and the rest of Europe."

https://archive.ph/vbbr3

In fact, that seems to be the official, stated policy of the US:

"The United States hopes the war in Ukraine will result in a “weakened” Russia that no longer has the capacity to invade its neighbors, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Monday — a sharpening of rhetoric toward Moscow as the conflict stretches into its third month.

“We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine,” Austin said.

"Then, he said, the United States hopes Russia will be “weakened” by the war. “It has already lost a lot of military capability and a lot of its troops, quite frankly, and we want to see them not have the capability to very quickly reproduce that capability,” Austin said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/25/russia-weakened-lloyd-austin-ukraine-visit/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=wp_main

Of course, such a goal requires the war to continue, perhaps indefinitely.

@no1marauder said
The reasoning of a 5 year old.

How ridiculous for someone to assert that why a war started is irrelevant to ending it! You need to study your Clausewitz.

Yeah I guess I forgot the sarcasm flag kinda thought it was obvious 🙄
Only the one who is waging a war can ultimately stop the war.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah I guess I forgot the sarcasm flag kinda thought it was obvious 🙄
Only the one who is waging a war can ultimately stop the war.

Both sides "wage" war.

Wars ends when the two sides find it mutually beneficial to end it.

They rarely end because one side is shamed into ending them by the powerful moral force of the other's and its supporters arguments.

@no1marauder said
In fact, that seems to be the official, stated policy of the US:

"The United States hopes the war in Ukraine will result in a “weakened” Russia that no longer has the capacity to invade its neighbors, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Monday — a sharpening of rhetoric toward Moscow as the conflict stretches into its third month.

“We want to see Russia weakened to ...[text shortened]... r&utm_campaign=wp_main

Of course, such a goal requires the war to continue, perhaps indefinitely.

I’m sure they’d be over the moon if Russia stopped its invasion tomorrow but given that’s not going to happen and given that Ukraine is not going to hand it’s country over to Russia the best thing for everyone is that this becomes the last time the Kremlin invades a neighbouring state. That’s not unreasonable and it certainly doesn’t mean that they want the war to continue indefinitely its simply stating the best outcome in the worst case scenario.

@kevcvs57 said
I’m sure they’d be over the moon if Russia stopped its invasion tomorrow but given that’s not going to happen and given Ukraine is going to hand it’s country over to Russia the best thing for everyone is that this becomes the last time the Kremlin invades a neighbouring state. That’s not unreasonable and it certainly doesn’t mean that they want the war to continue its simply stating the best outcome if it does.

That hardly follows and is in fact contradictory to what the Defense Secretary stated. There is no likelihood that the war will end soon except by a negotiated process that cedes certain Ukrainian territory and results in that nation adopting a "neutral" position. Such a result will surely not leave Russia's military soooooooooooooo weakened it could not conceivably invade some other nation. Only an actual massive military defeat of Russia could possibly do that and that is hardly in the cards.

So Austin is bluntly stating he wants the war to continue so that Russia's military is weakened. This hoped for "weakening" will be paid in death and destruction for both sides.

@no1marauder said
Both sides "wage" war.

Wars ends when the two sides find it mutually beneficial to end it.

They rarely end because one side is shamed into ending them by the powerful moral force of the other's and its supporters arguments.

Stop lying only Russia is waging a war of invasion. This is not a case of two states wrangling over a disputed piece of land this is a powerful state trying to subdue and possibly eradicate a relatively weak state.
Next You’ll be telling us it takes two to rape and accusing the victim of participating in their rape by putting up a struggle

@no1marauder said
That hardly follows and is in fact contradictory to what the Defense Secretary stated. There is no likelihood that the war will end soon except by a negotiated process that cedes certain Ukrainian territory and results in that nation adopting a "neutral" position. Such a result will surely not leave Russia's military soooooooooooooo weakened it could not conceivably invad ...[text shortened]... litary is weakened. This hoped for "weakening" will be paid in death and destruction for both sides.

It’s makes as much sense as your interpretation. Mine just keeps the responsibility for continuing the war on the aggressor state.
He may well be saying that they prefer that option to Putin coming away with a victory and moving on to the next victim. For what it’s worth so do I but it’s the Ukrainians that are shedding their blood so they’ll decide when to negotiate and what terms they’ll accept. In the meantime I hope we in the west will keep giving them the tools to do the job we do not have the gonads to do for fear of that nuclear winter scenario.

@kevcvs57 said
Stop lying only Russia is waging a war of invasion. This is not a case of two states wrangling over a disputed piece of land this is a powerful state trying to subdue and possibly eradicate a relatively weak state.
Next You’ll be telling us it takes two to rape and accusing the victim of participating in their rape by putting up a struggle

Actually it certainly is partially about two nations wrangling over a "piece of land"; a piece that has had a war waged in it for 8 years with over 13,000 deaths. https://www.npr.org/2022/02/22/1082345068/why-luhansk-and-donetsk-are-key-to-understanding-the-latest-escalation-in-ukrain

Talking to you is like trying to explain things to a stubborn child who has a learning disability. You just cannot seem to accept reality when it comes into conflict with your pre-accepted simplistic propaganda. Saying others are "lying" when they are simply giving you accurate information is akin to the infantile strategy of "holding your breath until you turn blue".

@kevcvs57 said
It’s makes as much sense as your interpretation. Mine just keeps the responsibility for continuing the war on the aggressor state.
He may well be saying that they prefer that option to Putin coming away with a victory and moving on to the next victim. For what it’s worth so do I but it’s the Ukrainians that are shedding their blood so they’ll decide when to negotiate and wh ...[text shortened]... em the tools to do the job we do not have the gonads to do for fear of that nuclear winter scenario.

"Giving them the tools" in this case means encouraging the Ukraine to continue the war, which is hopeless militarily, rather than negotiate a peace.

It would take political courage, but the best thing Western leaders or even just President Biden, could do is arrange a summit with Putin and hammer out a long term agreement regarding Russian security issues. The chance for such an a meeting and agreement was passed over in December when it could have avoided this war, but the possibility still exists. Perhaps the West could insist on a ceasefire before such a summit which would ease the suffering that this war is inflicting.

@no1marauder said
Actually it certainly is partially about two nations wrangling over a "piece of land"; a piece that has had a war waged in it for 8 years with over 13,000 deaths. https://www.npr.org/2022/02/22/1082345068/why-luhansk-and-donetsk-are-key-to-understanding-the-latest-escalation-in-ukrain

Talking to you is like trying to explain things to a stubborn child who has a learnin ...[text shortened]... accurate information is akin to the infantile strategy of "holding your breath until you turn blue".

Yes a piece of Ukraines land 🙄
It doesn’t work that way I’m afraid. You cannot invade and grab part of a sovereign state and then claim its disputed land, I guess Kyiv would’ve become a disputed city if the Russians had managed to get there.

@no1marauder said
"Giving them the tools" in this case means encouraging the Ukraine to continue the war, which is hopeless militarily, rather than negotiate a peace.

It would take political courage, but the best thing Western leaders or even just President Biden, could do is arrange a summit with Putin and hammer out a long term agreement regarding Russian security issues. The chance ...[text shortened]... sist on a ceasefire before such a summit which would ease the suffering that this war is inflicting.

Hahaha here it comes, let’s reward the mass murderer and leave the eastern flank including Poland and the Baltic states open to invasion by Putin. You really a sick little Russian mouthpiece aren't you!

@kevcvs57 said
Hahaha here it comes, let’s reward the mass murderer and leave the eastern flank including Poland and the Baltic states open to invasion by Putin. You really a sick little Russian mouthpiece aren't you!

That seems to be your last, often used refuge.

It's silly and childish like most of your posts.

@kevcvs57 said
Yes a piece of Ukraines land 🙄
It doesn’t work that way I’m afraid. You cannot invade and grab part of a sovereign state and then claim its disputed land, I guess Kyiv would’ve become a disputed city if the Russians had managed to get there.

The situation is far more nuanced than your simplistic propaganda.

The Ukraine contains a large chunk of territory primarily populated by ethnic Russians who have an affinity for that country. When the Soviet Union fell, it was divided along pre-existing administrative units of that nation regardless of the wishes of the local population. This phenomenon occurred throughout Eastern Europe and while it was sometimes resolved amicably (the splitting of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia being one example), it more often has resulted in conflict of one sort or another.

True, Russia accepted the present borders in the 1990s but Ukraine at the same time pledged in its Constitution to remain neutral and not join any military alliances. It has since reneged on that position as the West has reneged on promises not to expand NATO. Russia has obviously reacted negatively to such radical changes in positions that affect its own security.

Even at that, Russia made no aggressive moves against Ukraine until the latter's President was illegally overthrown for having the temerity to not sign a trade agreement with the West. At the time, its moves in response were limited to what far minded observers would say were areas that were sympathetic to joining Russia esp. if the Ukraine adopted measures aimed at persecution of its Russian minority (which it has done under Zelensky and his predecessors).

I know this is a bit more complex than the "Putin is out to conquer the world!" narrative you prefer, so I expect you'll start stamping your feet and saying I'm "lying" again. Nonetheless, the realities of the situation call for a resolution of these issues by negotiation, not by merely assigning a black hat to one side and refusing to consider any possibility of compromise.