Originally posted by WajomaOnce again: free at the point of delivery. It's not a particularly difficult phrase to master, and it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's pretty funny that you get on your high horse about the "theft" implied in some poor old folks getting treatment, and yet have no problem whatsoever with the "liberty" of the state acting as guarantor for vast concentrations of personal wealth based entirely on happenchance.
Health insurance which is made more expensive by gummint regulation and bureaucracy.
Control Freaks Solution: Regulate the hell out of an industry, point finger and say it's broken, offer cure, more regulation, enforce cure.
We're seeing the word "free" being thrown around again, it's taken some time but I've at least got Amaurote trained up on this on ...[text shortened]... oney off them by using the above system.
It's important to call things what they are.
Originally posted by AmauroteThat's exactly what I said
Once again: free at the point of delivery. It's not a particularly difficult phrase to master, and it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's pretty funny that you get on your high horse about the "theft" implied in some poor old folks getting treatment, and yet have no problem whatsoever with the "liberty" of the state acting as guarantor for vast concentrations of personal wealth based entirely on happenchance.
"Free at the point of delivery" does not equal "free". You're learning, keep it up.
Originally posted by WajomaFree at the point of delivery... the part that upsets me is that right now I pay 800 per month for heath insurance... if the US goes to a Canada style NHS I will have to pay over 2000 god damn bucks per month. What makes it worse is I never go to the MD... last time I was there was... 1989. Now if the dentist, chiropractor and acupuncturists are covered then... I think I could burn though a few hundred a month if I tried really hard.
That's exactly what I said
"Free at the point of delivery" does not equal "free". You're learning, keep it up.
Originally posted by lepomis"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."
Free at the point of delivery... the part that upsets me is that right now I pay 800 per month for heath insurance... if the US goes to a Canada style NHS I will have to pay over 2000 god damn bucks per month. What makes it worse is I never go to the MD... last time I was there was... 1989. Now if the dentist, chiropractor and acupuncturists are covered then... I think I could burn though a few hundred a month if I tried really hard.
P J O'Rourke
Originally posted by mrstabbyTaxation comes down to violence ultimately. You don't pay taxes, then men with guns come to punish you.
Morals are based on evolutionary instincts, one of which is survival. Morals are also dependent on circumstance, which is why there are no absolutes (or if there are, I'm yet to see one) like you are trying to make out.
When faced with death, would you not steal to keep yourself or loved ones alive? Your moral values are very nice in the world you've mad ...[text shortened]... tion, or violence? If you can't tell the difference, then try living in Somalia for a while.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungbut would you really want to live in a world without taxes. I'm sure a lot of i is wasted, but I'm quite happy for roads (bumpy as they can be), bin men, hospitals, police (not sure about that last one...) etc...
Taxation comes down to violence ultimately. You don't pay taxes, then men with guns come to punish you.
Taxation can be seen the same way as the house kitty at my place. We all agree to throw in a fiver periodically, and it goes to stuff that we all need and mutually use. But even with only 4 of us you have to keep an eye on and chase up who has and hasn't coughed up because people forget of put it off. If you don't then you get 3 carrying the other, or 2 carrying 2, and then they get pissed off and it all falls down.
I'd therefore say that it is wrong to say that taxation is "protection money" paid to the people who run the biggest gang. It is, at least in intention, a pool to pay for things that we all need but wouldn't get bought if it were left to individuals to do so. The fact that it needs to be enforced, ultimately by men with guns (or at least sticks), is an after effect due to human nature. We want to contribute to the good of the community but would rather not when we could get a new TV instead.
Originally posted by belgianfreakYou've been misled on this -- every year I get a tax bill in the mail to pay my share of the upkeep for Dallas County's Parkland Hospital, which provides care for the indigent, delivers more illegal alien anchor babies than anywhere else in the country, and still has time to be a major center for treatment of fire and burn victims as well as a world-class trauma center.
...As for the rest of the people, they're left to go to squalid free hospitals who have no resources. Or have I been mislead on this?
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterThis center sounds excellent - is it typical of free health care in the US? I would imagine that, if it's a county hospital, that the quality of the hospital depends on the average wealth of the population that pays taxes towards it. Is the funding at a county level, or a state level...? Does that mean that poorer states have worse health care?
You've been misled on this -- every year I get a tax bill in the mail to pay my share of the upkeep for Dallas County's Parkland Hospital, which provides care for the indigent, delivers more illegal alien anchor babies than anywhere else in the country, and still has time to be a major center for treatment of fire and burn victims as well as a world-class trauma center.
(This is assuming Dallas is relatively wealthy - is it?)
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Originally posted by WajomaIf your entire argument is based on the silly semantic cavil that nothing is free because everything costs something, you're in even worse trouble than I initially thought.
That's exactly what I said
"Free at the point of delivery" does not equal "free".
The NHS is free to thousands of people who do not pay tax because they are below the tax bracket, although some may pay for prescriptions or contribute through indirect taxation. The idea that these people are stealing from those who are prime beneficiaries of random inheritance (current UK and US social mobility: zero) is ludicrous.
Originally posted by belgianfreakBelgianfreak:
That's what I thought - everyone is entitled to treatment in a public hospital. It is the quality of those public hospitals (+ waiting times for operations, + availability of drugs and equipment) that I have been led to believe is lacking. Are public hospitals in the US good?
My post 20 Sep has given you the opportunity to jump to more erroneous conclusions. Let me clear it up a bit.
Most hospitals in the USA are open to the public and Public Hospitals by law treat everyone who enters. “Public” is not a disparaging term (as you infer) and simply means, open to the public.
Private Hospitals, simply means privately owned and therefore are not required to accept patients without ability to pay. Equipment, capabilities, quality of staff, drugs, etc., are same in the two. The vast majority are Public hospitals and relatively few are Privately owned.
There are not queues in either type hospital (as you state), it seems you have assumed this. In fact, many come to Public Hospitals in USA from European countries to escape queues. Instances of Canadians mentioned in earlier threads were; Belinda Stronach a member of Canada's Parliament and Karen and J.P. Jepp, who came to USA for emergency treatment in order to avoid queues.
Point of fact, you do not have to be a citizen to receive treatment. This is evidenced by the strain inflicted on USA hospital systems and government coffers - especially in southwest states by illegal immigrants. Mexicans who live near the border come to US hospitals for treatment and return home when sorted. Full information on this subject is available on Internet and will give you insight into how open the USA system is to the disadvantaged.
One of the reasons medical insurance costs in USA have skyrocketed is due to the free care, not only to aliens, also to their own indigent citizens who use the emergency rooms not only for needed surgery but also for regular doctor visits.
Charges to the insurance companies are continually increased to cover costs of those who cannot pay. In fact, it could be argued that you are advantaged not to have insurance. If one has insurance in USA one usually has a 20% co-pay to a set limit that could be a few thousand dollars. If you have no insurance and are unable to pay…well …you don’t pay. In my opinion the USA does have socialized medicine system, one which is funded by those who carry insurance. Plus, there is no committee of “gate watchers” to refuse treatment due to your habits or inclinations.
If John Nuttal could get himself onto USA soil – he would be treated.
To quote you from your earlier post: “you've obviously got your mind made up, so there's not much debate here.”
Originally posted by MacSwainso, if I'm understanding you correctly, I (as a UK citizen) could catch a plane over to the US, walk into a public hospital which has facilities as good as you can find, show them that I need a heart bypass and get it done for free, then come home??
Belgianfreak:
My post 20 Sep has given you the opportunity to jump to more erroneous conclusions. Let me clear it up a bit.
Most hospitals in the USA are open to the public and Public Hospitals by law treat everyone who enters. “Public” is not a disparaging term (as you infer) and simply means, open to the public.
Private Hospitals, simply mea ...[text shortened]... your earlier post: “you've obviously got your mind made up, so there's not much debate here.”
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Originally posted by belgianfreakDon't carry ID. Don't give them your prognosis smart ass, just walk in the door grab your chest and complain. It is done many times every day.
so, if I'm understanding you correctly, I (as a UK citizen) could catch a plane over to the US, walk into a public hospital which has facilities as good as you can find, show them that I need a heart bypass and get it done for free, then come home??
(BTW, leave your snob appeal at home, don't wear your Brooks Bros. suit and leave the Rolex at home...you are supposed to be poor and indigent. Play the role!)
edit to add hints*
Are you specifically talking about actue situations (car crashes, imminent labour, heart attacks...)? If so, it sounds a similar system to the one in the UK. Although any UK citizen is entitled to any (available) treatement free of charge, people of other nationalities aren't - if they were that'd collapse the system pretty quickly!
The exception is in acute emergencies, where everyone regardless of nationality gets treated for that emergency - but not for more than that. Taking my heart bypass example, if I walked in clutching my chest they'd establish that I wasn't having a heart attack and send me home without treatment (unless I was willing to wait until I was having a heart attack, & even then, once fit to leave I would probably be repatriated to my own country for aftercare).
So, going back to the exampl of the man with the broken ankle - he as a non-acute emergency case, would he get treated without paying for it?
Originally posted by belgianfreakAre you stupid or something?
Are you specifically talking about actue situations
So, going back to the exampl of the man with the broken ankle - he as a non-acute emergency case, would he get treated without paying for it?
After each post I give, you come back with some assinine question trying to twist the wording. You simply do not want to hear anything outside the little box your mind resides in. Must be horrible for you when the invented paradigm you hide behind is splintered.
Read my previous posts, they are perfectly clear.