Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 22 Jul '10 20:26
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/obamas_failing_presidency.html

    ...

    So we come to ObamaCare, the program that, so we're told, will see him carried about in a solid gold sedan chair for the rest of his life by an eternally grateful populace. The sneak appointment of David Berwick to run the thing makes transparent a fact that was brought up continually and just as continually dismissed during the health care debate: that Obama wants a duplicate of the U.K. National Health Service, the sole British feature that he admires.

    And that's an interesting development. Because, according to studies by British health care specialists, the NHS kills up to 95,000 patients a year through incompetence, mistakes, and accidents. This number is ten times the international per capita average. It is the highest in Europe, and twice that of the U.S., a nation with six times the population.

    Since the NHS was established in 1948, hospital beds have dropped from over 800,000 to 160,000, while the number of bureaucrats has expanded to nine for each patient. Tales of patient abuse are a never-ending, almost a daily occurrence. A week ago, the Daily Mail featured a story about a young woman who entered an NHS hospital with excruciating head pain. Assuring her that it was merely a headache, the staff dumped her in a ward. It was actually a rare brain infection. When she began screaming uncontrollably as her brain was crushed against the inside of her skull, the staff tied her to a bed and left her. The next time they checked, she was dead.

    Then we have the Liverpool Care Pathway or LCP, a method of end-of-life treatment in which any given doctor decides whether a person is dying or not, and then orders all food and water withheld -- the Terri Schiavo treatment -- along with heavy sedation. Hundreds have died from mistaken LCP diagnoses, including people suffering from such terminal ailments as broken legs, gastritis, and skin infections. I seem to recall a certain lady mentioning "death panels" at some point or other.

    Just last week, the NHS ran into a "cash flow" problem (a neat trick with a budget of nearly $100 billion a year). The "trusts" which control hospital operations ran out of funds, leaving the hospitals high and dry. Patients were abandoned on operating tables for hours. Others scheduled for procedures were sent home. Ward patients were denied necessary drugs and painkillers. (The same thing happened in New South Wales in 2008, almost driving the state's health care system -- also based on the NHS -- to collapse. This episode was kept very quiet...so quiet that no single reference to it was made in the American media.)

    That's what's coming to us with ObamaCare. Oh yeah -- the number of accidental deaths under such circumstances will rise to the vicinity of 450,000. This won't simply increase Obama's popularity -- it will raise him to the level of legend. The problem is that the legend will comprise equal parts Bernard Madoff, Charles Manson, and Ludwig, Mad King of Bavaria.

    ...
  2. 22 Jul '10 20:45
    Well, considering the NHS is one of the cheapest health care systems in the developed world, you wouldn't expect great quality, would you? But considering their meagre budget, they do quite well. Not as well as the equivalent systems in e.g. France or Sweden, but they have a lot more funds (though they spend less per capita than the U.S.).
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Jul '10 20:50
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/obamas_failing_presidency.html

    ...

    So we come to ObamaCare, the program that, so we're told, will see him carried about in a solid gold sedan chair for the rest of his life by an eternally grateful populace. The sneak appointment of David Berwick to run the thing makes transparent a fact that was brought up cont ...[text shortened]... qual parts Bernard Madoff, Charles Manson, and Ludwig, Mad King of Bavaria.

    ...
    Of course, the health care reform bill passed this year doesn't create anything similar to an NHS, but you knew that. Is the only way right wingers can get a hard-on is to continually make claims that are manifestly and obviously false?
  4. 22 Jul '10 20:53
    How many people die to due "accidentally" not being treated due to having no insurance?
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Jul '10 20:58
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    How many people die to due "accidentally" not being treated due to having no insurance?
    An estimated 45,000 Americans die per year due to lack of health insurance. http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/news/20090917/no-health-insurance-higher-death-risk
  6. 22 Jul '10 21:36
    And that's an interesting development. Because, according to studies by British health care specialists, the NHS kills up to 95,000 patients a year through incompetence, mistakes, and accidents. This number is ten times the international per capita average. It is the highest in Europe, and twice that of the U.S., a nation with six times the population.



    I am reminded of a story about a lady who died due to having a toilet bowl brush broken off in her buttocks. She was drunk and fell in the bathroom. It was evidently thin enough to be difficult to find. It ended up jamming into her and breaking off. The doctors she went to didn't do anything about it, even though she complained about it. She eventually died of complications.
  7. 22 Jul '10 21:39
    Originally posted by Eladar
    [b]And that's an interesting development. Because, according to studies by British health care specialists, the NHS kills up to 95,000 patients a year through incompetence, mistakes, and accidents. This number is ten times the international per capita average. It is the highest in Europe, and twice that of the U.S., a nation with six times the population.
    [ ...[text shortened]... nything about it, even though she complained about it. She eventually died of complications.
    What is the relevance of your story?
  8. 22 Jul '10 21:59
    Sorry, forgot to mention she was in the UK.
  9. 22 Jul '10 22:06
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Sorry, forgot to mention she was in the UK.
    Yes. I'm sure you can find stories like this in any country in the world - including the one with the best health care system (wherever that may be).
  10. Subscriber deriver69
    Keeps
    23 Jul '10 13:01
    the NHS kills up to 95,000 patients a year
    The actual figure for last year is 2159. If it were 95000 that would imply about 1 in 6 people in the UK die from an NHS blunder.
  11. Subscriber deriver69
    Keeps
    23 Jul '10 13:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by deriver69
    The actual figure for last year is 2159. If it were 95000 that would imply about 1 in 6 people in the UK die from an NHS blunder.
    Actually that is the 2006 figure, cannot locate the 2009 figure although http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/06/21/656-killed-by-nhs-blunders-115875-22347967/
    claims it is under 700 in 16 months
  12. Subscriber deriver69
    Keeps
    23 Jul '10 13:18
    Just last week, the NHS ran into a "cash flow" problem
    Again not accurate. One NHS trust did (South London). This could be an argument against NHS trusts, but one badly run trust although a scandal is not representative of the NHS as a whole.
  13. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    23 Jul '10 15:27
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/obamas_failing_presidency.html

    ...

    So we come to ObamaCare, the program that, so we're told, will see him carried about in a solid gold sedan chair for the rest of his life by an eternally grateful populace. The sneak appointment of David Berwick to run the thing makes transparent a fact that was brought up cont ...[text shortened]... qual parts Bernard Madoff, Charles Manson, and Ludwig, Mad King of Bavaria.

    ...
    Wow ... thanks for the heads up on that I never realised I was in so much danger! A back of an envelope approximation tells me that with your figures over 10% of the UK population are being murdered by the NHS!


    --- and to think I used to read and believe your posts!

    btw: Liverpool Care Pathway is given in the final hours (occassionally final days) of a terminal patients life ... I dont think anyone with a broken leg is going to be put on it!

    courtesy of Wiki:

    Jonathan Potter, the director of the Clinical Effectiveness and Evaluation Unit of the Royal College of Physicians stated in 2009 that their audits showed that "where the Liverpool Care Pathway for the dying patient (LCP) is used, people are receiving high quality clinical care in the last hours and days of life".[10] The 2009 audit looked at end-of-life care in 155 hospitals, and examined the records of about 4,000 patients.
  14. 23 Jul '10 17:28
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/obamas_failing_presidency.html

    ...

    So we come to ObamaCare, the program that, so we're told, will see him carried about in a solid gold sedan chair for the rest of his life by an eternally grateful populace. The sneak appointment of David Berwick to run the thing makes transparent a fact that was brought up cont ...[text shortened]... qual parts Bernard Madoff, Charles Manson, and Ludwig, Mad King of Bavaria.

    ...
    Yes the british health system is terrible, like in all europe.
    A good example of this is Stephen Hawkins
    "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." as quoted from Investor's Business.

    more on the subject here :
    http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/08/12/stephen-hawking-defends-british-health-care-system-against-u-s-conservatives.aspx
  15. 23 Jul '10 17:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Yes. I'm sure you can find stories like this in any country in the world - including the one with the best health care system (wherever that may be).
    Wrong. You could never find such a story in the U.S.