NY the least-free state in the US

Originally posted by no1marauder
The rest of your post is a non sequitur.

It was a personal thumbnail explanation of why I "dismiss... contemptuously" the paradigms provided by your system. It was entirely relevant.

Originally posted by FMF
It was a personal thumbnail explanation of why I "dismiss... contemptuously" the paradigms provided by your system. It was entirely relevant.

I find uninteresting your irrational hostility to Americans; perhaps a therapist could help you with that.

"Manifest Destiny" and the so-called "American Dream" have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the theory of limited government espoused by the Framers.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I find uninteresting your irrational hostility to Americans

Good for you.

irrational hostility to Americans; perhaps a therapist could help you with that

Yeah yeah, dissenters have a mental health problem. How original. How devastating to me. Ow.

Originally posted by no1marauder
"Manifest Destiny" and the so-called "American Dream" have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the theory of limited government espoused by the Framers.

And they have absolutely plenty to do with cock-eyed and non-cock-eyed definitions and descriptions of "freedom", the de facto topic of this thread, as does the theory of limited government espoused by "the Framers".

Originally posted by FMF
Good for you.

[b]irrational hostility to Americans; perhaps a therapist could help you with that

Yeah yeah, dissenters have a mental health problem. How original. How devastating to me. Ow.[/b]

Your "dissent" has nothing to do with anything. Rejecting one idea because you don't like other unrelated ideas is foolish and irrational particularly when said rejection seems to be based on very little knowledge of what the idea is.

Originally posted by FMF
And they have absolutely plenty to do with cock-eyed and non-cock-eyed definitions and descriptions of "freedom", the de facto topic of this thread, as does the theory of limited government espoused by "the Framers".

How exactly? Do you even know what Manifest Destiny means?

Nor do I see how the concept of the "American Dream" is terribly relevant to the size of government. Perhaps you could explain that.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Nor do I see how the concept of the "American Dream" is terribly relevant to the size of government. Perhaps you could explain that.

Does the concept of the American Dream have any credence whatsoever without a thriving, muscular, well funded public education system?

The 21st Century direct descendant of Manifest Destiny, an ideological bloodline never broken once since the 1840s, comprises the virulent bipartisan political certainty that it is the "mission" of the U.S.A. to promote and defend what it determines to be "democracy" throughout the world. The upshot - entirely relevant to the size of government thing, and therefore presumably impinging on normbenign's and zeeblebot's concept of "freedom" - is your gigantic Defence Department budget, among other mechanisms for projecting U.S. interests, agendas and demands onto the world.

I am surprised that you, no1, of all people, didn't make these connections based on my earlier quip, and had to have me explain.

Originally posted by FMF
Does the concept of the American Dream have any credence whatsoever without a thriving, muscular, well funded public education system?

The 21st Century direct descendant of Manifest Destiny, an ideological bloodline never broken once since the 1840s, comprises the virulent bipartisan political certainty that it is the "mission" of the U.S.A. to promote and de le, didn't make these connections based on my earlier quip, and had to have me explain.

You must be joking.

No, the "American Dream" has nothing whatsoever to do with public education. I dare say that the paradigm of the successful "American Dream" was a poorly educated person who got rich in business.

No, Manifest Destiny has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the US' present defense budget. The US' Defense budget when it was actually fulfilling what it perceived to be its "Manifest Destiny" -i.e. expansion to the Pacific Ocean - was minimal. I might also add that this thread is regarding comparisons between States in the US system, where the size of the National Defense Budget is irrelevant.

Your explanations are nonsensical.

I actually looked at the study the first post summarized. It states on page 7:

We explicitly ground our conception of freedom
on an individual rights framework. In our view, individuals
should be allowed to dispose of their lives,
liberties, and property as they see fit, so long as they
do not infringe on the rights of others.1 This understanding
of freedom follows from the natural-rights
liberal thought of John Locke, Immanuel Kant, and
Robert Nozick, but it is also consistent with the
rights-generating rule-utilitarianism of Herbert
Spencer and others.2 In the context of the modern
state, this philosophy engenders a set of normative
policy prescriptions that political theorist Norman
Barry characterizes as follows:
[A] belief in the efficiency and morality of
unhampered markets, the system of private
property, and individual rights—and a deep
distrust of taxation, egalitarianism, compulsory
welfare, and the power of the state.3
In essence, what we are attempting to measure is
how well state and local public policies conform
to this ideal regime of maximum, equal individual
freedom.4

http://www.mercatus.org/uploadedFiles/Mercatus/Publications/Freedom%20in%20the%2050%20States.pdf


There's not a lot of Framers in that group, though Locke's ideas regarding Natural Rights were an important influence on the Framers. But there's little indication that he or they would have been overly concerned with the tax rates imposed by a democratic majority unless it amounted to confiscation (and some probably wouldn't have had much of a problem with confiscation of the aristocracy's holdings).

EDIT: In fact, Nozick is the only American in that list and he was born 150 years after the US Constitution was written.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your explanations are nonsensical.

Nonsensical? Foolish and irrational? Ignorant? Needs therapy?

How tedious your expressions of disagreement so often are. But it's OK. There are people here who think I am a twat as well, so I can hardly preach to you.

We disagree. So there you go.

The possibility that the concept of the American Dream might in any way be 'true' is clearly linked to a well funded public education system. This relates to the size of government, which in turn relates to taxation, and the decision making process about how taxes are spent, which relates to "freedom" in NormbenignWorld and ZeeblebotWorld, which is the topic of this thread.

The U.S. "mission" to promote and defend what it determines to be "democracy" throughout the world - often at the expense of other peoples' "freedom" - is clearly rooted in the 170 year old concept of Manifest Destiny. The resulting gigantic Defence Department budget and other costly mechanisms for projecting U.S. interests, as mentioned before, relates to the size of government, which in turn relates to taxation, and the decision making process about how taxes are spent, which relates to "freedom" in NormbenignWorld and ZeeblebotWorld, which is the topic of this thread.

Look, I feel no need to convince you no1. The connections I've made are clearly not nonsensical. One can clearly dispute them. But to call them 'nonsense' is a wee bit silly. I am sorry if the parting shot in my previous post ("I am surprised that you, no1, of all people, didn't make these connections based on my earlier quip, and had to have me explain" ) was lemon juice in your paper cuts.

Originally posted by FMF
Nonsensical? Foolish and irrational? Ignorant? Needs therapy?

How tedious your expressions of disagreement so often are. But it's OK. There are people here who think I am a twat as well, so I can hardly preach to you.

We disagree. So there you go.

The possibility that the concept of the American Dream might in any way be 'true' is clearly linked to a we ...[text shortened]... lier quip, and had to have me explain" ) was lemon juice in your paper cuts.

All I can say is you don't understand the concept of either the "American Dream" or "Manifest Destiny". The first pre-dated public education by decades and the second had nothing whatsoever to do with "spreading democracy" throughout the world. You seem to be confusing these 19th Century concepts with 20th and 21st Century concepts that you (and I) find objectionable. This is poor reasoning.

Originally posted by no1marauder
All I can say is you don't understand the concept of either the "American Dream" or "Manifest Destiny".

Yes I do. And I understand their histories and the relationships between their current manifestations and those histories. What we have established this morning (my time) is that we disagree.

"The American Dream, that has lured tens of millions of all nations to our shores in the past century has not been a dream of material plenty, though that has doubtlessly counted heavily. It has been a dream of being able to grow to fullest development as a man and woman, unhampered by the barriers which had slowly been erected in the older civilizations, unrepressed by social orders which had developed for the benefit of classes rather than for the simple human being of any and every class." James Truslow Adams, the U.S. writer who coined the term "American Dream".

While I understand your reasons for disagreeing with me, I cannot accept that linking effective public education (whose aim is equal opportunity - not equal achievement or outcome) to the "dream of being able to grow to fullest development" is 'poor reasoning' or 'nonsensical'.

Today, in standard scholarly usage, Manifest Destiny describes a past era in American history, particularly the 1840s. However, the term is sometimes used by the political left and by critics of U.S. foreign policy to characterize interventions in the Middle East and elsewhere. In this usage, Manifest Destiny is interpreted as the underlying cause of what is perceived by some as "American imperialism". From wikipedia.

I count myself to be, broadly speaking, on the left. Hence my usage of 'Manifest Destiny' in the way that I have. I stand by it. Your objections are understood and noted.

I believe that the propagation of a meaningful American Dream and my (apparently) 'leftist' take on - if you want - the legacy of, Manifest Destiny, are both "size of government" issues.

Originally posted by normbenign
Who else is logically responsible for children?

"Logically responsible"? What does that even mean?

Originally posted by normbenign
Access is improved by liberty. Good health care, and good education will be improved by economic liberty, and diminished by Marxist collectivism.

Are you willing to argue that New York has the best schools?

In what sense do cutting funding for schools and health care improve its quality? I'm curious.

Are you willing to argue that New York has the best schools?

No, but I'm willing to argue that Northern European schools are better than US schools.

Here's how it works. In every society, there are two kinds of markets. There is one market for private goods familiar to everyone. And then there is another market for packages of collective goods. The producers of these packages are called political parties. Consumers of these packages decide who gives the best offer, and then the collective of consumers decides which package of collective goods is best and purchases that at the advertised price. Since it's impossible to buy collective goods privately, this is the most efficient way of purchasing them.

Now obviously, this market of political parties needs enough competition to flourish - that is why the US (and UK, and others) political system is so bitterly failing. It's not that the government is "too big", the problem is that it's ineffective due to the fact that the market for political parties has been monopolized by two parties promoting essentially the same agenda.