Originally posted by kmax87But we can wipe the other side off the face of the Earth now! 😕
Well if you believe the whole wahabi school is a 'lets reclaim our former glory and win back everything that we lost since the crusades', then I suppose all the neo cons are correct and there is no middle ground and the only way forward is to not give an inch, but I suspect its that very same stoic authoritarianism that is at the heart of all the trouble.
...[text shortened]... appeasers like Chamberlain in the face of Ahmadinejad's 'Hitler' and are not listened to.
Originally posted by david haworthThis is exactly right. We in the west enjoy the freedom that our ideologies have built, but if you lived in a Saudi reality, then the west is this impenetrable force that helps put a lid on any aspirations you may have to express yourself in ways that contradict the wishes of the Saudi royal family. And its in that capacity as a permanent overarching opaque ceiling that we in the west instantly loose our fuzzy warm humanist appeal and instead are seen more like the problem than the solution.
i dont think 911 would have happened had we not been in saudi arabia already. the osama bin laddens of the world cant recruit based on their religion alone, it's our prescence that enables them to recruit.
Originally posted by kmax87Actually, the Saudis love us.
This is exactly right. We in the west enjoy the freedom that our ideologies have built, but if you lived in a Saudi reality, then the west is this impenetrable force that helps put a lid on any aspirations you may have to express yourself in ways that contradict the wishes of the Saudi royal family. And its in that capacity as a permanent overarching opaque c ...[text shortened]... ose our fuzzy warm humanist appeal and instead are seen more like the problem than the solution.
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Originally posted by der schwarze RitterIn the same xenophobic way that the western media often languages the followers of Islam and others of middle eastern appearance all in a similar manner, the followers of extremism tend to see the west as a border-less globalised state, where any reasonable similarity of US style consumerist assimilation is seen as proof positive of also being a worthy target of their hate filled insanity.
You say that Islamic terrorists wage asymmetrical warfare (in other words, terrorism) against the West, out of necessity. So why do Islamic terrorists target places like Canada, Spain, India, Bali, Thailand and the Philippines, etc., which have no foreign troops in Islamic countries?.
Originally posted by scherzoWell this is the end game isnt it. The hearts and the minds of those at the street level who are the cannon fodder of the war of terror. If all they see is a heavy handed bellicose US, intransigent in manner and policy why would they ever bother to question the insanity of the extremist's rhetoric?
Well, they don't have too much say in that theocracy, do they?
We acknowledge that this is a war like no other and that most of the usual rules do not apply. The solution therefore is probably not going to be the same old same old. It will require an absolute paradigm shift in terms of language and posturing and actions, where for once the legitimate claims for parity will have to be recognized for their worth at face value, and processes of economic and political rehabilitation/reparation enacted accordingly.
If we keep treating people like they were vicious dogs, why are we always amazed when they try and bite the flesh off our limbs?
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Originally posted by kmax87For the last time, its about oil.
Small bunch of ideologically primed extremists who see all of western capaitalism as their problem, and at the center of it all the USA the most technologically advanced and empowered empire of all time armed to the teeth with real WMD and you go figure the options they have to try and overthrow their perceived oppressor. Do two buildings equal the tonnes of at can be brokered by collateral damage seems to be a strategy actively followed by both sides.
The first time the US went into Iraq, the Western powers were behind them via NATO. Oil in the region was to be protected at all costs. Then the second time countries like France, who had under the table deals for oil with Iraq, and, therefore, opposed the US going in again.
Of course, you could paint the Western powers. especially the US, as the "bad guy", but what about Saddam? Why did he go into Kuwait which started all this? Was it for the scenery? It seems to me Muslim Arabs like to have all the oil to themselves as well.
Really, if it were not for oil men like Bin Laden and Saddam opposing the US, most of this would have been averted. However, everyone likes to be king of the hill, if you know what I mean. No matter who is on top of the hill, someone will ALWAYS be below trying to push you off. It just sicken me when people try to demonize certain nationalities over others when in all actuality the problem here is human nature.
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Originally posted by whodeyOil may be the main game, but its not the only game going on, and if anything is only the visible aspect of a much deeper ideological struggle.
For the last time, its about oil.
The only problem I see with westernization and suburbia, is that the time scales that we are configured to, must seem like long term memory loss to other cultures and nationalities. Also we have been and continue to be at the top of the food chain and therein lies a certain hubris.
Most can now barely remember the last two world wars let alone conflicts that occurred in the 19th century and earlier. The thing is the only thing resonant with our culture is the need to update and be current.
In other parts of the world where media is more controlled and continuity with the past is much less diluted the opposite may indeed be true where it seems there are groups who are not willing to immerse themselves in the present at all and prefer to ruminate on a glorious past.
Their short term memory loss (stml) juxtaposed against our long term memory loss (ltml) may be at the root of the collision course that has neo con inspired western consumerism tilting against wahabi inspired islamofascist extremism.
While it seems that that explanation ignores the bleeding obvious, ie the highly profitable prize of oil, its what those profits mean to the players in the game that makes for many a career.
Originally posted by kmax87Interesting post. I think that the root of stml vs ltml is mostly in the fact that those on top do not have a glorious past to aspire to and those on the bottom see the past glories as their righteous place in history.
Oil may be the main game, but its not the only game going on, and if anything is only the visible aspect of a much deeper ideological struggle.
The only problem I see with westernization and suburbia, is that the time scales that we are configured to, must seem like long term memory loss to other cultures and nationalities. Also we have been and continue t ...[text shortened]... ize of oil, its what those profits mean to the players in the game that makes for many a career.
Not sure if the level of control by the media is as important in that segmentation, but the media in general helps to crystalize these attitudes.
Originally posted by PalynkaThe media instigates a lot of what Westerners believe. It's supposed to.
Interesting post. I think that the root of stml vs ltml is mostly in the fact that those on top do not have a glorious past to aspire to and those on the bottom see the past glories as their righteous place in history.
Not sure if the level of control by the media is as important in that segmentation, but the media in general helps to crystalize these attitudes.