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  1. 24 Apr '10 03:06 / 1 edit
    http://politics4all.com/users/mikedavis/blog/5939-amish-families-exempt-from-insurance-mandate-in-obamacre

    Federal health care reform will require most Northern New Yorkers -- but not all, it turns out -- to carry health insurance or risk a fine.

    Hundreds of Amish families in the region are likely to be free from that requirement.

    The Amish, as well as some other religious sects, are covered by a "religious conscience" exemption, which allows people with religious objections to insurance to opt out of the mandate. It is in both the House and Senate versions of the bill, making its appearance in the final version routine unless there are last minute objections.

    Although the Amish consist of several branches, some more conservative than others, they generally rely upon a community ethic that disdains government assistance. Families rely upon one another, and communities pitch in to help neighbors pay health care expenses.

    The Amish population has been growing in the north country, as well as in New York generally. The state ranks 6th nationally in Amish population and posted the biggest net increase in Amish households -- 307 -- from 2002 to 2007, according to the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies at Elizabeth College in Pennsylvania.

    Lawmakers reportedly included the provision at the urging of Amish constituents, although the legislation does not specify that community and the provision could apply to other groups as well, including Old Order Mennonites and perhaps Christian Scientists.

    A professor and lawyer at Yeshiva University in New York complained last summer that exempting groups for religious reasons could run afoul of the Constitution. Marci A Hamilton, who teaches at the Universities Benjamin N Cardozo School of Law, wrote at Findlaw.com in August. "If the government can tolerate a religious exemption, then it must do so evenhandedly among religious believers with the same beliefs. This is sheer favoritism for a certain class of religions, or even for one religion."

    In her column, Ms. Hamilton speculated that lobbyists for the Christian Science Church were responsible for the provision, given their public stance that health care reform bills around the country should include religious exemptions. In and e-mail message Friday, she said she was unaware of the Amish interest in the bill and that their objections to the mandate surprised her because the Amish do buy vehicle insurance, for instance.

    Ms. Hamilton said the exemption could harm the health of children whose families avoid medical care for religious reasons, although the Amish objections relate more to insurance than to medical care itself.

    Congressional aides said the exemption is based on a carve-out the Amish have had from Social Security and Medicare taxes since the 1960's. Whether Amish businesses, however, would fall under the bill's mandates is still an open question.

    Sen. Charles E Schumer, who was a key negotiator on the Senate bill, supports the religious exemption, said a spokesman, Maxwell Young, who called the provision a "no brainer".


    SHould the Amish be allowed to be exmept? If so, how many people of faith should be allowed to declare exemption? For example, suppose there are Christians that object to monies from the taxes collected going to abortions?
  2. 24 Apr '10 04:13
    If there are provisions of the bill exempting the Amish then it's not Obama "verses" the Amish.

    The bill does NOT cover abortion. Not one single federal penny goes toward covering abortions. Trying to claim exemption on that ground is no different then saying they religiously object to the bill forcing them to allow monkeys to fly out of their azz.
  3. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    24 Apr '10 05:24
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://politics4all.com/users/mikedavis/blog/5939-amish-families-exempt-from-insurance-mandate-in-obamacre

    Federal health care reform will require most Northern New Yorkers -- but not all, it turns out -- to carry health insurance or risk a fine.

    Hundreds of Amish families in the region are likely to be free from that requirement.

    The Amish, as well ...[text shortened]... there are Christians that object to monies from the taxes collected going to abortions?
    Such exemptions are a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" First amendment to US Constitution

    "Government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion." Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority
  4. 24 Apr '10 07:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Such exemptions are a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" First amendment to US Constitution

    "Government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion." Board of Education of ...[text shortened]... District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority
    I agree. Every single reference to religion should be removed from the law and constitution. Stating that a religious opinion is superior to or more important than a non-religious one is institutionalized discrimination.
  5. 24 Apr '10 11:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    If there are provisions of the bill exempting the Amish then it's not Obama "verses" the Amish.

    The bill does NOT cover abortion. Not one single federal penny goes toward covering abortions. Trying to claim exemption on that ground is no different then saying they religiously object to the bill forcing them to allow monkeys to fly out of their azz.
    But the aritcle does not say that the Amish will not seek medical care, rather, it says that they often help each other pay for medical expenses. So it should be the same for everyone else. If not, why not?

    The abortion issue is just one of a myriad of reasons that one of religion might oppose Obamacare. You say that not one penny of it will go to fund abortions, which I find hard to believe, but lets say you are right. You could have more and more religiouns going the route of the Amish. As government becomes more and more intrusive you might have more and more religious people withdrawing from the "system". As the article states, "Although the Amish consist of several branches, some more conservative than others, they generally rely upon a community ethic that DISDAINS governmnet assistance. Families rely upon one another, and communities pitch in to help neighbors pay health care expenses."

    This is how I feel. In fact, at our church we offer a free medical clinic, so how should I be treated any different than the Amish?
  6. 24 Apr '10 11:41 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://politics4all.com/users/mikedavis/blog/5939-amish-families-exempt-from-insurance-mandate-in-obamacre

    Federal health care reform will require most Northern New Yorkers -- but not all, it turns out -- to carry health insurance or risk a fine.

    Hundreds of Amish families in the region are likely to be free from that requirement.

    The Amish, as well there are Christians that object to monies from the taxes collected going to abortions?
    What if the Amish declared that paying taxes to any government violated their religion? Would this exempt them from having to pay taxes?

    Perhaps a libertarian could declare that paying taxes was immoral and violated their religious belief that almost all government is an immoral use of force. Would that exempt them from having to pay taxes?

    Maybe this could be a new angle for the conservative movment?
  7. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    24 Apr '10 11:43
    Originally posted by whodey
    The abortion issue is just one of a myriad of reasons that one of religion might oppose Obamacare.
    What provision did the recently passed health reforms make for abortion?
  8. 24 Apr '10 11:44
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    What if the Amish declared that paying taxes to any government violated their religion? Would this exempt them from having to pay taxes?

    Perhaps a libertarian could declare that paying taxes was immoral and violated their religious belief that almost all government is an immoral use of force. Would that exempt them from having to pay taxes?

    Maybe this could be a new angle for the conservative movment?
    Well it appears that Senator Schumer of New York has opened the door. I'm still waiting to hear from USAarmyguy to tell me how the Amish are any different from myself?
  9. 24 Apr '10 12:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    What provision did the recently passed health reforms make for abortion?
    http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/abortion-obamacare/

    In recent public addresses, President Obama railed about the supposed "outrageous myths" surrounding his plan for Health Insurance Reconstruction, a plan that is often shilled as Healthcare Reform. One of the things he attempted to refute was the voluntary, non-medically required abortions would be covered under ObamaCare.

    From Reuters: Some are also saying that coverage for abortions would be mandated under reform. Also false.

    Much like the President Obama's statements about illegal immigration and Obamacare, in a Rovian sense what President Obama asserted is true, or at least not completely false. There are no provisions in any of the legislation currently in play - HR3200 bieng the only of importance now - that mandate that coverage for abortions.

    This is completely true, but it is another example of President Obamas disingenuous nuance. Even with the very narrowly passed Capps Amendement there is nothing preventing ObamCare from effectively subsidizing voluntary, non-medically required abortions.

    Obama has said in the past that "reproductive services" would be covered by his Public Option, therefore it is likely that any new federal insurance plan would cover such abortions unless Congress expressly prohibits that action. Low-to-moderate-income persons who would choose a the Public Option would qualify for federal subsidies -- Affordability Credits - to purchase it. Private plans offereed on the proposed Healthcare Exchange that cover abortion also could be purchased with the help of such affordability crisis.

    "We are going to set up a health plan that all persons and all women can access if they do not have health insurance. It will be a plan that will provide all essential services, including reproductive services, as well as mental health services and disease management services, because part of our interest is to make sure that we are putting more money into preventive care. (Senator Obama in his july 17, 2007 address to Planned Parenthood)

    The then-Senator Obama's campaign spokespeople later confirmed and calrified that Obama included abortions in those "reproductive services".

    Despite the sophistry and legalism, despite any shifting from one column to another on the books so as to avoid violating the Hyde Amendment or the proposed Capps Amendment, which is essentially applies the Hyde Amendment to HR 3200, if public subsidies are provided for the purchase of health insurance and the policies purchased cover voluntary abortions then ObamaCare will, in effect, cover said abortions and use American tax payer dollars to do so.

    So is the claim that ObamaCare will cover abortions an "outrageous myth'?. No, but it is an oversimplification of the matter. This is very much the same as President Obama's "outrageous myth" that ObamaCare WON'T cover abortions.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Of course, this article is somewhat dated, but it gives you a taste of all the games they play legally. That being said, the Amish are not objecting to Obamacare on the basis that it will fund abortions, rather, they simply disdain government assistance. So why can't I do the same?
  10. 24 Apr '10 12:34
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/abortion-obamacare/

    In recent public addresses, President Obama railed about the supposed "outrageous myths" surrounding his plan for Health Insurance Reconstruction, a plan that is often shilled as Healthcare Reform. One of the things he attempted to refute was the voluntary, non-medically required abortions would be cove ...[text shortened]... rather, they simply disdain government assistance. So why can't I do the same?
    He didn't ask you to post a blog of someone else telling the same lie. He asked you what provision covers abortion.
  11. Standard member Goatboysrevenge
    Justice 4 the 96
    24 Apr '10 12:48
    If the amish indeed '... rely upon one another, and communities pitch in to help neighbors pay health care expenses.' as you say, then isn't that quite like socialised healthcare, or even 'Obamacare' as the Teabaggers (i like a bit of tea-bagging in Halo 3 myself!) say? The community, in this case the U.S. population as a whole, chipping in a bit more to help those who can't afford it themselves?
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    24 Apr '10 12:57
    Originally posted by FMF
    What provision did the recently passed health reforms make for abortion?
    boing

    whodey?
  13. 24 Apr '10 13:41 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    He didn't ask you to post a blog of someone else telling the same lie. He asked you what provision covers abortion.
    I was merely using abortion as an example. Apparently the article I gave was wasted upon you. Now there is a shocker.

    Unfortunatly, the thread is not about abortion, rather, its about the Amish being opposed to paying into Obamacare on the basis that they disdain government programs. So how is this any different from people like myself? You might say that the Amish help each other in the community to pay for expenses, but like I said, my church has a free medical clinic that we give to, so how is Whodey any different?
  14. 24 Apr '10 13:44
    Originally posted by Goatboysrevenge
    If the amish indeed '... rely upon one another, and communities pitch in to help neighbors pay health care expenses.' as you say, then isn't that quite like socialised healthcare, or even 'Obamacare' as the Teabaggers (i like a bit of tea-bagging in Halo 3 myself!) say? The community, in this case the U.S. population as a whole, chipping in a bit more to help those who can't afford it themselves?
    The Amish don't run up $12 trillion debts and tax each other to death and they don't threaten each other if they are financially unable to help. No wonder they disdain the US federal government. Perhaps the Amish could shadow their "representative" and give them some pointers on how to help those in need?
  15. 24 Apr '10 13:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    I was merely using abortion as an example. Apparently the article I gave was wasted upon you. Now there is a shocker.

    Unfortunatly, the thread is not about abortion, rather, its about the Amish being opposed to paying into Obamacare on the basis that they disdain government programs. So how is this any different from people like myself? You might say t ...[text shortened]... ike I said, my church has a free medical clinic that we give to, so how is Whodey any different?
    As an example of what?