Originally posted by FMF You're just after having said that "they abhor surrendering any power to the private sector" and the very next post you say they are soon to become the second biggest economy in the world. You appear to be making an advertisement for the extraordinary capacity of authoritarianism. Not your intention, I am sure. But the incoherence and ambiguity of what you say is perhaps one of hazards of just making things up.
Once again it is you who are being 'incoherent' and obtuse.
All the evidence supports the conclusions reached by your opponents on this issue; no nation yet has thrived economically under communist rule.
Originally posted by Leon Alvarado Once again it is you who are being 'incoherent' and obtuse.
All the evidence supports the conclusions reached by your opponents on this issue; no nation yet has thrived economically under communist rule.
Well, Sartor, I myself - not being a communist - have always been quite explicitly unimpressed with the degree to which countries have thrived economically under communist rule. Take it up with the communists. You are barking up the wrong tree.
Originally posted by whodey Why is all that money flowing into China? It is because of the population and the fact that it has been economically surpressed since the Great Wall was built by statists. Now the wall is gradually coming down and the world economies are salivating at the oppurtunity to stimulate vast growth in the region. In fact, China is poised to bypass Japan as the second best economy in the world.
In fact, China is poised to bypass Japan as the second best economy in the world. "second best" ??? hardly, second biggest maybe but NOT second best
The Chinese economy is approx a third of the EU
EU population = 500 million
China pop. = 1,300 million
However it is growing at a phenomenal rate and who knows where it will be in 20 years? (the best?)
Originally posted by wolfgang59 [b]In fact, China is poised to bypass Japan as the second best economy in the world. "second best" ??? hardly, second biggest maybe but NOT second best
The Chinese economy is approx a third of the EU
EU population = 500 million
China pop. = 1,300 million
However it is growing at a phenomenal rate and who knows where it will be in 20 years? (the best?)[/b]
No, in 20 years time China will be nowhere near the top in GDP per capita. It's around the 90th place in the world currently (surrounded by such super rich countries as Albania and El Salvador). Rising quickly, yes, but a long, long way to go, and it's far from guaranteed China will keep up 10% growth/year for decades.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra Most of the rich countries in the world use a mixed-economy democracy. I think it's safe to say such a system generally produces the best results.
I think history shows us quite clearly that social democracy both reined in the excesses of unrestrained capitalism - and harnessed its benefits - while at the same time vanquishing authoritarian communism, in both instances for the self-evident greater good.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra No, in 20 years time China will be nowhere near the top in GDP per capita. It's around the 90th place in the world currently (surrounded by such super rich countries as Albania and El Salvador). Rising quickly, yes, but a long, long way to go, and it's far from guaranteed China will keep up 10% growth/year for decades.
Unlikely I agree BUT;
China has averaged 10% growth over past 30 years.
That sort of growth would put it close to EU and US in terms of GDP/capita.
And can developed world maintain its GDP/capita? It could fall!
Originally posted by wolfgang59 Unlikely I agree BUT;
China has averaged 10% growth over past 30 years.
That sort of growth would put it close to EU and US in terms of GDP/capita.
And can developed world maintain its GDP/capita? It could fall!
At some point, China's rampant corruption and inefficient, bureaucratic government structure will surely impede growth. Without democracy, it's extremely difficult to fight corruption and bureaucracy.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra At some point, China's rampant corruption and inefficient, bureaucratic government structure will surely impede growth. Without democracy, it's extremely difficult to fight corruption and bureaucracy.
It seemed to me back before Soeharto fell from power here in Indonesia, that the lack of democracy made it easier for western corporations to engage in nice linear corruption they could get their heads around. Now with decentralization and 'democratization', corruption is still endemic but far more complex. I suppose that's why we don't hear much more than the odd peep from the western and transnational corporations who invest in China about the lack of democracy there. One wonders - indeed - how sincerely many of the world's sinophile "capitalists" are about actually wanting to see the end of "communism" in China.
Originally posted by rwingett About as much as there is for claiming the opposite.
No.
The opposite is bolstered by the fact that, prior to free market reforms, China's GDP per capita and poverty rates were among the worst in the World. Just the fact that it's sustained 10% economic growth for decades and hasn't come close to catching western countries (or Japan, for that matter) in all important economic metrics per capita is a testament to just how crippling the pre-Deng socialist/Communist policies were on China.
What we also know is that roughly 25% of the Chinese people have been relieved from property subsequent to the free market reforms.
There thus is a basis to assume that capitalism was the driving factor in alleviating this poverty. There is no basis for claiming the opposite; just wild speculation.
The opposite is bolstered by the fact that, prior to free market reforms, China's GDP per capita and poverty rates were among the worst in the World. Just the fact that it's sustained 10% economic growth for decades and hasn't come close to catching western countries (or Japan, for that matter) in all important economic metrics per capita is a testament ...[text shortened]... alleviating this poverty. There is no basis for claiming the opposite; just wild speculation.
You'll never convince them.
They'll always claim that if they'd stuck to pure communism everything would have been better, it only needed more time.
China has managed its (necessary) transition well thus far - probably better than anyone might have expected at the outset. What is probably most interesting is how well they have done while thumbing their collective nose at the western freepers and other solipsists who thought that one model of development could, would and should fit all. The world - including our, first world - will be a very different place when the same amount of time has elapsed again.
Originally posted by DrKF China has managed its (necessary) transition well thus far - probably better than anyone might have expected at the outset. What is probably most interesting is how well they have done while thumbing their collective nose at the western freepers and other solipsists who thought that one model of development could, would and should fit all.
The West has got "Russia early 1990s" indelibly printed on its CV.
Poverty in China
17 Aug '10 07:07
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