I would argue, that only the very violent need to kept in prison. We shouldn't lock up, drug addicts, burgalars non fine payers etc.
Prison breeds violent people and perpetuates crime.
Prison is a lazy answer. Society should try to tackle what motivated the crime in the first place.
Employing prisoners in menial work and other community orders would be more successful in reducing crime.
The mentally ill, should be housed in secure and accommodation, which is specialised in treating their needs.
We are locking up too many, women, children and other who are no a danger to society. Restoritive justice, education and life skills should form the backbone of our criminal justice system.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by invigorateNon violent people will not become violent in prison. You don't think that drug addicts, burglars and non-fine payers etc. are a danger to society? Absolutely they are. If there is no punishment for that kind of behavior...what would be the point of having law. We all pay big buck for enforcement and personally if I am paying someones sallary with my taxes I want jails full of people or I may wonder why have them on the dole.
I would argue, that only the very violent need to kept in prison. We shouldn't lock up, drug addicts, burgalars non fine payers etc.
Prison breeds violent people and perpetuates crime.
Prison is a lazy answer. Society should try to tackle what motivated the crime in the first place.
Employing prisoners in menial work and other community orders wo ...[text shortened]... education and life skills should form the backbone of our criminal justice system.
Thoughts?
RTh
Originally posted by RingtailhunterI don't think he's suggesting that burglary etc goes unpunished, just that prison isn't the best way to go about it.
Non violent people will not become violent in prison. You don't think that drug addicts, burglars and non-fine payers etc. are a danger to society? Absolutely they are. If there is no punishment for that kind of behavior...what would be the point of having law. We all pay big buck for enforcement and personally if I am paying someones sallary with my taxes I want jails full of people or I may wonder why have them on the dole.
RTh
There is certainly a point that, while prison might turn a non-violent person into a violent person, it does teach them how to be better burglars, drug-dealers or whatever. They are therefore less likely to be caught, and therefore an increased menace to society.
The problem is that nobody has really tried alternatives to prison on any sort of scale, so there's no evidence of how effective it is. (None that I'm aware of anyway).
I guess it depends what you want. If you just want some sort of retribution, then prison is the answer. If you actually want to have fewer burglars etc in society, then it is no use at all.
Why not have prisons trying to be self sufficent.. Grow their own vegtables, crops.. No tv, just books to read. Maybe have them making furniture than can be sold or something else useful.
I agree tho, people who go into prison seem to mostly end up coming out with more underworld contacts, a drug habit or two and no desire to get back into regular society.
Originally posted by Ringtailhunterdrug addicts are not neccessarily a danger to society.
Non violent people will not become violent in prison. You don't think that drug addicts, burglars and non-fine payers etc. are a danger to society? Absolutely they are. If there is no punishment for that kind of behavior...what would be the point of having law. We all pay big buck for enforcement and personally if I am paying someones sallary with my taxes I want jails full of people or I may wonder why have them on the dole.
RTh
Alternatives to prison do exist in many countries and have been very successfull. However they can also be expensive and unpopular. People like revenge. If someone steals from you, you want him punished not taught a trade and given a job etc. The vast majority of criminals worldwide are poor and uneducated and would be less likely to steal if given a skill. Many prisons do provide skills training and that is a form of compromise between a plain lockup prison and your suggestion of alternatives. ie lock them up but also train them.
The problem of prisoners learning bad habits from other prisoners is a big one but hard to deal with.
Whatever the best way to deal with criminals may be the best long term solution is to solve the problems before they start, reduce poverty, increase education, better gun control etc.
Originally posted by invigorateWhen a society CHOOSES to accumulate garbage, the pile gets bigger until it is too big then it is let loose in the streets.
I would argue, that only the very violent need to kept in prison. We shouldn't lock up, drug addicts, burgalars non fine payers etc.
Prison breeds violent people and perpetuates crime.
Prison is a lazy answer. Society should try to tackle what motivated the crime in the first place.
Employing prisoners in menial work and other community orders wo ...[text shortened]... education and life skills should form the backbone of our criminal justice system.
Thoughts?
Murderers, rapists and child molesters need to be shot and burned.
Drug dealers, white crimers and all other "wolves" who feed on the stupid need to be sent to hard labor for the rest of their natural lives.
Drug users need to be pittied and helped. There are hundreds of ways of doing this.
Thieves need to do ten years hard labor, no exception. Then permanent probation on fear of life terms.
It's a question that must be answered. How big of a pile of garbage can a civilization allow to accumulate and still describe itself as "civilized"?
btw... Hard labor does involve a rock and a hammer and a road project to nowhere.
edit... I forgot the most important part. Any lawyer who lies or invents to KNOWINGLY get a guilty killer off... needs to be shot.
Originally posted by dk3nnyThe 'Silent System', as practised in some states of America in the 19th century and described by Dickens, would avoid bad contacts in prison and allow the worst criminals time to reflect on the futility of their crimes.
Why not have prisons trying to be self sufficent.. Grow their own vegtables, crops.. No tv, just books to read. Maybe have them making furniture than can be sold or something else useful.
I agree tho, people who go into prison seem to mostly end up coming out with more underworld contacts, a drug habit or two and no desire to get back into regular society.
Originally posted by Nargagunathen the bleeding hearts would be crying "abuse" ...
The 'Silent System', as practised in some states of America in the 19th century and described by Dickens, would avoid bad contacts in prison and allow the worst criminals time to reflect on the futility of their crimes.
As I've said before on several occasions on this site, as someone who works in four prisons and has seen many more, I have no particular objection to a prison being administered for the purposes of rehabilitation, punishment, containment or education: however, I think it's about time the prison service I work for made up its mind which of those imperatives it really believes in, or which categories of inmate it believes each should apply to. At the moment, the UK prison service is a mess of contradictory ideas and badly coordinated bureaucracies that mean well most of the time, but achieve absolutely nothing because they do not serve the same ends.
Personally I'm all for Scandinavian-type prisons, but I suspect you need a Scandinavian-type culture to make them viable...2000 shoplifters in prison, now come on, what the hell are they doing here shoulder to shoulder with rapists and arsonists? I also think that some of the sex offenders I've met are perfectly redeemable and should be given a second chance (remember, there are paedophilias as well as paedophiles - in some cases it appears to be a shallow moving state between paranoia and neurosis, in some cases it is virulent and ineradicable)...however, there is no question that many of them should be locked up for the rest of their natural lives, because they cannot stop sexualizing children and they cannot help themselves. Elder abuse is probably worse in that the offenders seem to be even nastier and more violent, but I've only seen one or two examples of this, so I'm loathe to draw any firm conclusions.
But yes, more imaginative solutions to the same old problems...and a little bit of Northcote Parkinson logic might also help.