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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    16 Apr '12 15:49
    How would the world today be different, just your opinions, if the communists had not taken over and China remained with an emperor? For instance, would Vietnam have gone communist, if not, seems like the Vietnam war would not have happened. That kind of thing, any ideas?
  2. 16 Apr '12 15:57
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How would the world today be different, just your opinions, if the communists had not taken over and China remained with an emperor? For instance, would Vietnam have gone communist, if not, seems like the Vietnam war would not have happened. That kind of thing, any ideas?
    Not sure, but the main opposition to the Communists were the Nationalists so it could have been potentially worse. The Vietnam war was as much a war of Independence from western dominance, they could just as easily have followed the Chinese into Nationalism.
  3. 16 Apr '12 18:14
    It seems unlikely that the Emperor would have lasted. The nationalists could have won, maybe.
  4. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    16 Apr '12 18:25
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How would the world today be different, just your opinions, if the communists had not taken over and China remained with an emperor? For instance, would Vietnam have gone communist, if not, seems like the Vietnam war would not have happened. That kind of thing, any ideas?
    Is that the movie where in the opening scene the dude goes into the bathroom and slits his wrists in the sink? That's as far as I got.
  5. 16 Apr '12 20:03
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    Is that the movie where in the opening scene the dude goes into the bathroom and slits his wrists in the sink? That's as far as I got.
    Too similar to a Romney nominating convention?
  6. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    16 Apr '12 20:21
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Too similar to a Romney nominating convention?
    lol. Not bad.
  7. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    16 Apr '12 21:31
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    It seems unlikely that the Emperor would have lasted. The nationalists could have won, maybe.
    The nationalists would be led by Chaing Ki Check?
  8. 16 Apr '12 22:11
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How would the world today be different, just your opinions, if the communists had not taken over and China remained with an emperor? For instance, would Vietnam have gone communist, if not, seems like the Vietnam war would not have happened. That kind of thing, any ideas?
    The imperial system was obsolete anyway by the time the Communists came to power, so it would been a nationalist republican government under Chiang Kai-Shek. You can see roughly what it would have been like from looking at Taiwan, which was ruled by Chiang; except that governing the whole of China would have been a lot harder than governing a small island.

    So it wouldn't have been great, I suspect; some kind of right-wing tyranny, probably with nominally democratic institutions, would likely have developed. Holding China together would have required some fairly ruthless policies. Early postwar Taiwan's more draconian infringements of civil liberties were motivated in part by fear of the Communist mainland, but a capitalist China would I think have been afraid of the proximity of Soviet Russia, so the same sort of infringements would have been deemed necessary.

    Having said all that a) I fail to see how anything as awful as the Cultural Revolution could have happened, and b) I think the chances of democratic reform in the last thirty years would have been quite strong. Also, having China on side would have usefully tipped the balance in the Cold War against the Soviet Union, which I think would have been a good thing.
  9. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    16 Apr '12 22:35
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    The imperial system was obsolete anyway by the time the Communists came to power, so it would been a nationalist republican government under Chiang Kai-Shek. You can see roughly what it would have been like from looking at Taiwan, which was ruled by Chiang; except that governing the whole of China would have been a lot harder than governing a small island. ...[text shortened]... balance in the Cold War against the Soviet Union, which I think would have been a good thing.
    And there is the part where the Chinese government killed 33 million of its own people. Real smart move, that one. I wonder if that gave Pol Pot an excuse to off about half of his fellow Cambodians? Nice guy Pol Pot, eh. Between the Chinese and the Cambodians, the Nazi's were not even in the same ball park.
  10. 17 Apr '12 00:27
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How would the world today be different, just your opinions, if the communists had not taken over and China remained with an emperor? For instance, would Vietnam have gone communist, if not, seems like the Vietnam war would not have happened. That kind of thing, any ideas?
    The reason that political visions, and differing economic and social theories persist over centuries, despite radical differences, is that unlike experiments in hard sciences, they can't be repeated. Once done, we can't go back and undo history, and try it a different way. Most experiments in hard science can be tried repeatedly with different variables, so over time some theories become obsolete or false, and are replaced.

    Political and social theory and even economics, may be replayed in some ways, but all the variables would be difficult to control. It is impossible to say what would have happened if --------?
  11. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    18 Apr '12 17:33
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The reason that political visions, and differing economic and social theories persist over centuries, despite radical differences, is that unlike experiments in hard sciences, they can't be repeated. Once done, we can't go back and undo history, and try it a different way. Most experiments in hard science can be tried repeatedly with different variables ...[text shortened]... would be difficult to control. It is impossible to say what would have happened if --------?
    Well, if you had a big enough computer.....
  12. 19 Apr '12 00:42
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Well, if you had a big enough computer.....
    The biggest computer would be subject to "junk in junk out". You would have to control for every single variable, some of which we can't even identify.
  13. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    22 Apr '12 18:01
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The biggest computer would be subject to "junk in junk out". You would have to control for every single variable, some of which we can't even identify.
    Just wait till quantum computers come on the scene, not the first generation level but a decade later when they get truly powerful, way more powerful than classical computers.