Right to health care

Originally posted by sh76
That presumes that all people pay taxes. Many don't (especially federal taxes).

People don't have an inherent right to demand anything from anyone except to be left alone. Sure, they have the right to vote for politicians who will enact various programs. But that's the political process, not a right.

If someone becomes gets laid off from their job, should their children no longer be allowed to attend school until they start working and paying taxes again?

The point of government is to provide for its people. The point of taxes (should) be to provide for people to the best of a government's ability. Those who can't pay taxes should be helped until they can be self-sufficient enough to provide for themselves, which in turn will help the government when that person can pay taxes.

The problem with your thinking is that you don't see the government and the people as two parts of a whole. The people and the government (should be) one. When our government helps its people, we are helping ourselves.

Originally posted by vivify
If someone becomes gets laid off from their job, should their children no longer be allowed to attend school until they start working and paying taxes again?

The point of government is provide for its people. The point of taxes (should) be to provide for people to the best of a government's ability. Those who can't pay taxes should be helped until they ...[text shortened]... the government (should be) one. When our government helps its people, we are helping ourselves.

In what sense is, say, a lawyer who makes $100k "self-sufficient"? That someone makes X amount does not mean anything about the value of the goods and services they provide.

Originally posted by techsouth
Because most states have declared education a "right", the effectiveness is diminished. There are many students in schools who have no desire to learn and cause countless disruptions to other students who might otherwise learn something. But the schools cannot expel such students because somewhere, someone has declared they have a "right" to education.

You can say that with anything we have a right to; voting, for example. Voter apathy is an issue in the U.S. Do we ban the right to vote and make people "earn" it so they appreciate more? How people feel toward a right has no bearing on its value as a right.

And it is odd that we decide we have a "right" to education up through 12th grade, but not a "right" to go to college nor graduate school.

That's because very few people will agree children shouldn't have a right to education. After 12th grade, most people are considered adults, and this becomes a slightly different issue.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
In what sense is, say, a lawyer who makes $100k "self-sufficient"? That someone makes X amount does not mean anything about the value of the goods and services they provide.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. If a lawyer makes 100k a year, (s)he probably doesn't need outside help to provide for her/himself. That makes the lawyer self-sufficient. Same for someone who makes 100k through starring in a reality show. If they can provide for themselves, that's a good thing, regardless of the value of what they provide.

Originally posted by vivify
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. If a lawyer makes 100k a year, (s)he probably doesn't need outside help to provide for her/himself. That makes the lawyer self-sufficient. Same for someone who makes 100k through starring in a reality show. If they can provide for themselves, that's a good thing, regardless of the value of what they provide.

Someone purchasing services or goods is requesting "outside help."

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Someone purchasing services or goods is requesting "outside help."

You're being stupid.

Originally posted by vivify
You're being stupid.

Or maybe he comes from a different country and 'self sufficient' means something else to him than it does to you. I see it as an ambiguous phrase which could mean you grow all you own food, make your own clothes etc, or it could simply mean you don't sponge off your mum.
It would seem the former meaning (not yours) is the standard one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sufficiency

Originally posted by vivify
You can say that with anything we have a right to; voting, for example. Voter apathy is an issue in the U.S. Do we ban the right to vote and make people "earn" it so they appreciate more? How people feel toward a right has no bearing on its value as a right.

[b]And it is odd that we decide we have a "right" to education up through 12th grade, but not ...[text shortened]... fter 12th grade, most people are considered adults, and this becomes a slightly different issue.

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I think free public education is a good idea, however we should dispense with this notion that it is a "right".

Driving is viewed as a privilege. Virtually anyone can get a drivers license, but there are things that cause you to loose that privilege (such as drunk driving). And when the privilege is lost, the burden is not upon the government to find you a ride to work.

Should be the same with education in extreme cases. Students who constantly disrupt learning for other students should be kicked out and the government should not be required to find an alternative school.

And as far as college goes, just give it a few more years. Already there are many who contend that free college is a human right. As public schools become more and more ineffective, more people will join the "free college for all" parade.

Originally posted by techsouth
First of all, I'd like to clarify that I think free public education is a good idea, however we should dispense with this notion that it is a "right".

Driving is viewed as a privilege. Virtually anyone can get a drivers license, but there are things that cause you to loose that privilege (such as drunk driving). And when the privilege is lost, the bur ...[text shortened]... hools become more and more ineffective, more people will join the "free college for all" parade.

Free college, like free public grade and high schools, would be a good idea in the present reality where the gap between earnings of those who go to college and those who don't is very large and growing.

I agree that neither is a "right", however, in the traditional Lockean Natural Rights philosophy that the United States was/is based on.

It's really irrelevant whether you call it a "right" or not, the question is whether it is a good idea to purchase said service collectively.

Originally posted by techsouth
First of all, I'd like to clarify that I think free public education is a good idea, however we should dispense with this notion that it is a "right".

Driving is viewed as a privilege. Virtually anyone can get a drivers license, but there are things that cause you to loose that privilege (such as drunk driving). And when the privilege is lost, the bur ...[text shortened]... hools become more and more ineffective, more people will join the "free college for all" parade.

Human beings determine what is a right or not.

Rights start out with the most basic, primal things, such as the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness. As society changes, new, slightly less basic rights get added (such as the right to privacy). Societies evolve even more, and even less basic ideas are needed, such as the right to vote.

When you compare the right to vote against the first, most basic right to simply be allowed to live (the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness), against the right to vote, the later seems like it shouldn't be a right at all; but modern societies need this to be a right in order to progress.

So we go further into the evolution of society, and we arrive at the right for all children to become educated. Currently, in the U.S., it has now become needed to add healthcare to the list of rights.

Originally posted by vivify
You can say that with anything we have a right to; voting, for example. Voter apathy is an issue in the U.S. Do we ban the right to vote and make people "earn" it so they appreciate more? How people feel toward a right has no bearing on its value as a right.

[b]And it is odd that we decide we have a "right" to education up through 12th grade, but not ...[text shortened]... fter 12th grade, most people are considered adults, and this becomes a slightly different issue.

People don't often value what they view as "free". Voting is just one example. I failed to vote in yesterday's primary simply because I didn't see where my vote would have made a difference.

It turned out that my appraisal was correct.

I thought about crossing over to vote for Bernie, but he won anyway.

Originally posted by vivify
Human beings determine what is a right or not.

Rights start out with the most basic, primal things, such as the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness. As society changes, new, slightly less basic rights get added (such as the right to privacy). Societies evolve even more, and even less basic ideas are needed, such as the right to vote.

When ...[text shortened]... ated. Currently, in the U.S., it has now become needed to add healthcare to the list of rights.

The more enumerated rights there are, the less each one means. Most of the new rights are in reality privileges gained through political activism, and not true rights which would apply to all equally.

Originally posted by normbenign
The more enumerated rights there are, the less each one means.

No individual right less important just because our perception of it does.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Free college, like free public grade and high schools, would be a good idea in the present reality where the gap between earnings of those who go to college and those who don't is very large and growing.

I agree that neither is a "right", however, in the traditional Lockean Natural Rights philosophy that the United States was/is based on.

But you do think health care is a right.

So if the state turns me down for a medical procedure that I and my doctor deem important then am I being denied my natural rights?