Russia's alliance with China

@vivify said
Is China really an "expansionist threat"? When is the last time China invaded a country?

I would say the noises China is making over Taiwan and the repression of Hong Kong dissention qualify as expansionist. That the West dropped HK in China's lap doesn't make it right to shove its Totalitarian values down the throats of the people of HK.

@sh76 said
I would say the noises China is making over Taiwan and the repression of Hong Kong dissention qualify as expansionist. That the West dropped HK in China's lap doesn't make it right to shove its Totalitarian values down the throats of the people of HK.

While I agree with you regarding China's "totalitarian values", that might be stretching the definition of "expansionist", since those are Chinese territories.

@vivify said
While I agree with you regarding China's "totalitarian values", that might be stretching the definition of "expansionist", since those are Chinese territories.

In the deep historical sense, perhaps, but both operated as de facto independent countries for many decades.

The 2 are very different cases. HK was dropped in China's lap by virtue of the expiration of the British "lease," while Taiwan has maintained its autonomy since the civil war.

Anyway, the swallowing of Hong Kong is largely an accomplished fact and, though I sympathize with the Hong Kong people, there's not a whole heck of a lot we can do for them. Supporting Hong Kong independence would practically be tantamount to a declaration of war.

Taiwan's independence, on the other hand, is the status quo and can and must be defended.

@vivify said
Is China really an "expansionist threat"? When is the last time China invaded a country?

Have you forgotten Russia invaded Ukraine and took over Crimea?

China invaded Vietnam in 1984

@athousandyoung said
China invaded Vietnam in 1984

Thanks. Looked it up, not quite the same, China was allies with a nation Vietnam attacked. I don't think that would count as "expansionist".

@vivify said
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/15/chinas-xi-and-russias-putin-talk-geopolitics-in-video-call.html

China is siding with Russia regarding Ukraine, possibly a middle-finger to the West. Putin called Xi his "dear friend".

What does this super-power alliance mean for the world? Both also have veto power in the UN.

They do this out of fear. The US is a pain in the arse to Russian aggression and would like to have a large nation on its side. Makes perfect sense on their part, especially as bordering nations. Remember Russia and China worked to thwart US aggression in Syria.

@joe-beyser said
Remember Russia and China worked to thwart US aggression in Syria.

Wasn't much "work". All it took was Putin asking Trump to pull out:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/21/syria-military-operation-wrapping-up-putin-tells-assad-in-russia-talks

@vivify said
I was responding specifically to what you said here:

"Russia might decide that a liberal Europe and a liberal democratic super power across the Atlantic is less of a threat than an expansionist totalitarian super power on its eastern border.
If it’s got any sense"

I found it interesting that even though Russia is the one that annexed another country's territory, ...[text shortened]... nsive history of invading and taking over other countries. This is the reason why NATO was formed.

Why do you find it “interesting”? If you want to accuse me of being a Sinophobe just go for it. I call things as I see them I’d take a bet that China will be as expansionist as it can be over time but we’d both probably be pushing up daisies before they attain that level of dominance.
It’s interesting to me that you assume that China will act differently to every other powerful entity throughout recorded history, even when all the signs point in the opposite direction, perhaps your a Sinophile.

@kevcvs57 said
If you want to accuse me of being a Sinophobe just go for it.

Good god, look what years of Duchess has done to you.

@vivify said
Good god, look what years of Duchess has done to you.

No I won’t blame my paranoia on anyone else if that’s what it is. But you haven’t explained why you disagree with the majority of China’s neighbours regarding its expansionist attitude and militarisation of the South China Sea.
It seems perfectly rational to assume that an unchallenged regional superpower will expand its territorial domain even as a buffer for its historically legitimate borders.

@kevcvs57 said
No I won’t blame my paranoia on anyone else if that’s what it is. But you haven’t explained why you disagree with the majority of China’s neighbours regarding its expansionist attitude and militarisation of the South China Sea.
It seems perfectly rational to assume that an unchallenged regional superpower will expand its territorial domain even as a buffer for its historically legitimate borders.

Again, your post was that *Russia* needs to be concerned about "expansionist" China.

Given that Russia over the last hundred years has been far more "expansionist" than any other country (so much so, an entire continent had to unite against it as NATO), this statement seemed backward. That's on top of the fact that not too long ago, Russia annexed Crimea.

@vivify said
Again, your post was that *Russia* needs to be concerned about "expansionist" China.

Given that Russia over the last hundred years has been far more "expansionist" than any other country (so much so, an entire continent had to unite against it as NATO), this statement seemed backward. That's on top of the fact that not too long ago, Russia annexed Crimea.

Well yes because one obvious direction of expansion is westward into Russia’s eastern territories. They’ve probably already got contested borders in the region which they might not push at the same time as taking on the USA and the west in the pacific region.

@kevcvs57 said
Well yes because one obvious direction of expansion is westward into Russia’s eastern territories. They’ve probably already got contested borders in the region which they might not push at the same time as taking on the USA and the west in the pacific region.

And northeastward into Siberia. There are places where Chinese metrópoli like Manzhouli are sharply defined by the border and on the Russian side there is almost nothing. There’s a natural tendency for those cities to want to expand into that less developed land.

@athousandyoung said
And northeastward into Siberia. There are places where Chinese metrópoli like Manzhouli are sharply defined by the border and on the Russian side there is almost nothing. There’s a natural tendency for those cities to want to expand into that less developed land.

It is just natural, species, nations and tribes, everyone does it, our species is busy expanding into the cosmos, and China will almost certainly expand in all directions when the circumstances allow / demand it.